Visited a friend and the Shobbos table discussion took a turn into Shidduch Lane. (Anyone here shocked? No?)
Apparently, someone wrote into the Yated saying that there should be a two-date minimum requirement set, because it’s impossible to tell after one date, and this heedless rejecting is crippling people’s chances.
Someone wrote in a vehement retort saying that the suggestion was pure pritzus because there is no purpose in a date that’s already a foregone conclusion.
We discussed this exercise in ink-wasting (because nobody is going to make any rules and nobody is going to enforce them if they’re made), and someone said his friend’s friend’s daughter rejected a guy after the first date as “totally self-centered.” Her father was rather partial to the fellow, and urged her to give him another chance. She agreed with certain conditions: that she wouldn’t do her hair or put on any makeup and that he’d better explain his “totally self-centered” behavior from date one. (Hey, I’d date anyone on those conditions! Almost.)
After date two, she was unsure. After date three, she was unsure. In middle of date four she called to say that she was engaged. (Which makes me unsure… of her sanity.)
Well, one story begets another. Someone else’s friend’s friend had a daughter who dismissed a guy after the first date, but he pressed for a second without letup. She, naturally, had no interest in a second, ‘pritzusdik’ date, and refused. Her father met a notable rav in the elevator and asked what she should do. He said, “Go out again.” So she did. Six children later…
The second-date turnaround stories came thick and fast. “Well how can you tell from one date?”asked Friend’s Mother. “Everyone is nervous and uncomfortable.” Indeed, second dates sounded sensible.
Walking home with a shidduch-jaded friend, I related the conversation.
“I used to do that,” she said. “I seriously gave everyone a second chance. But after about two years of that kind of dating I don’t have the patience anymore. You can tell when a guy is totally not right. And I’m not going to waste time on those type.”
That sounds sensible too.
I’m not so sure. In college and in other places I’ve met a number of couples that are really rediculously happy that outright hated each other when they met, and continued to do so for sometime, until they had some sudden epiphany that that person was the one and only one for them.
I would apply to it the talmuds rule that when every judge declares him guilty then he goes free. Why? because you never have a case that is that clear cut.
My personal policy is that I will go out with anyone twice, provided they don’t do something on the first date to completely and totally turn me off (and I once got stuck dating someone like that twice anyway…don’t ask). However, I will always tell the shadchan(it) if I am interested in going out again because I want to or if it’s a second-chance date. Usually, the guy also realizes it’s not shayach and we’re both spared–we both save time, and he saves money.
a very close friend of mine had a first date that both hated eachother, total disaster date (totally turned eachother off) but went out again since he came from outa town (another set-in-stone rule)….. 4 1/2 kids later…… iguess as bad as the first one was the second one was good….
come to think of it do they have a happy marriage???
I feel very strongly that you should NOT be pressured for a second date if you really don’t like the person the first time. I was pushed once and it was AWFUL. I knew from the first five seconds of the first date that he wasn’t for me, and the second date was excruciating. If you know within the first 20 mintues that there won’t be a second date, THERE SHOULDN’T BE A SECOND DATE. If you are repulsed by them, NO SECOND DATE. If you are counting the minutes until it’s over, NO SECOND DATE.
If it’s so-so, try again. But if it’s bad, NO SECOND DATE! If you think you’re going to be wondering for the rest of your life, go out again. Don’t be picky. But don’t lower your standards, either.
I almost always argue the same point: Unless something truly horrid happens on date one, go for date two.
Personally, I think the reason for this is actually different: I think people should be going into dates with the assumption that they’re going to have to go out on another date, so they are both less nervous (‘even if i say something a little dumb, it’s okay’), so they’re not so judgmental (i have plenty of time to figure out if he/she isn’t for me), etc. I actually tell friends to go into any date – first, third, eighth, etc. – with the assumption that there is another date afterwards. If after the date they say “No, sorry, just isn’t going to go”, that’s fine – but going into every date thinking “all right, this is it, let’s see if we keep going!” just doesn’t seem to be healthy.
Also, I think that people often notice things that they don’t like/bother them on the first couple of dates and say no right away. Often, they’re issues that are fairly inconsequential and simply going out a little bit will let them see if those are really important or not. Nobody is perfect; figuring out which imperfections really matter and which don’t is part of getting married.
In the theater they have a saying: “Bad dress rehearsal, excellent first night performance.” A first date is a “dress rehearsal.” Real dating doesn’t actually start until after that first date. A first date is a time to “shake out the nerves” so that you can get to the real “performance.”
Oh my, that’s so much pressure. I dated my husband for 6 years before getting married at age 24. I knew him totally, i can’t imagine taking my clothes off with (basically) a stranger that night! whoa.
Well, in seminary they told us that if the first date is more positive than negative, go out again. I think that is a pretty good rule of thumb.
Jen- they didn’t mean ONLY one or two dates..there ARE more after that.
I have no opinion regarding whether a second date would or would not be a good idea. I just want to understand the letter calling it “pure pritzus because there is no purpose in a date that’s already a foregone conclusion.” If one (or both) sides isn’t interested in even a second date, how might that date be more of a risk of pritzus than any other date? It would seem to me that it would be less likely to lead to either marriage or to pritzus.
Someone once told me this, which I think explains a lot: Sometimes people have a hard time agreeing to a second date because they’re too focused on commitment. They ask themselves “Do I want to marry this person?” before they even know them. A more appropriate question at this stage would be “can I survive another date with this person?” If the answer is no, then don’t try. If it’s yes, then go and see if anything develops.
Sometimes people are so nervous on a first date that they really don’t act like themselves. If you’re at all unsure, I think that a second date is worth taking a chance on.
i kept to the first date leads to second rule until i realized that my fisrt date assumptions were right on the money and i was just wasting his money and both of our time…
This simple rule works best for me:
If one thinks a date was bad because of a clearly perceived hashkafah, background, personality (see parentheses below) etc. conflict, or if physical appearance is not up to par, then there is no reason to see each other again.
If, on the other hand, one thinks that the date might have been bad because of the all-to-familiar “First-Date Syndrome”, then he/she should give it a second chance. (Note that one of the common symptoms of The Syndrome is a gross misconception of personality on the part of the dating partner.)
I myself am “afflicted” with the syndrome (oops, that was bad for shidduchim) as I believe most people are to varying degrees.
Why not just skip the first date and start with the Second Date?
First off, dont poskin off the Yated. Second, unless you are on a madrega that you only go outside for parnosa, because you literally have nothing to eat, or for an absolute mitzva, like the shitas ha Rambam, I wouldnt worry about a second date being pritzus. Our entire way of dating (ie:lounges and restaurants) is very pritzudig by that standard.
If you aren’t being redt constantly, and you dont have names out the wazoo, then as long as you arent totally repulsed by the boy, and he wants to see you a again, give it another shot.
My policy is what BasMelech said. If I think I can survive a 2nd date, I will agree to a second date. If I cannot imagine spending one more minute with this person, no 2nd date. No thinking about marriage at this point, just another date. But, I don’t think guys think this way. My friends and I basically give a 2nd date to anyone who didn’t do anything repulsive on the 1st date. Guys need to be wowed in order to give a girl a 2nd date.
I take exception to that saraK
i love second dates and i hate first dates. everyone is boring, simple, generic on a first date.. and suddenly on a second date you see a real smile, a real laugh, a real thought.
i know everyone says you can tell right away from the first date.. and i also tend to feel that way .. but I still think that second dates are so much clearer, so much more pleasant, so much more real. i figure, id rather go on a second date now, then second guess my choices 5 years later.
(of course if he was REALLY repulsive or did something totally inapropriate theres no need to go. but aside from that.. it just adds so much clarity..)
Sorry, Yoni, but that has been my experience, in dating, as well as in setting up others.
I’ve dumped a few guys after a first date. No is no. If I thought there was an inkling, I’d say yes to a second.
But if someone’s dumb enough to confess to cheating his way through college on the first date (unsolicited!!!!!!!!!) then SEE YAA
I got many shmoozim from rebbeim about the importance of giving girls the 2nd date no matter what! But the girls don’t get the same shmoozim obviously. Been said “no” to after one date many times
SaraK:
It works both ways. Women demand perfection on a 1st date just as much as men do.
Pingback: Friday Repost: Take Two? | Bad for Shidduchim
I agree with Ezzie above, when he says “If after the date they say “No, sorry, just isn’t going to go”, that’s fine – but going into every date thinking “all right, this is it, let’s see if we keep going!” just doesn’t seem to be healthy.”
I’ve also been feeling that it’s weird for people to go into every date thinking that they’re gonna wanna marry the guy or girl. That’s puts on a lot of pressure. Once after I stopped going out with someone, a family friend (who knew my date as well) commented that he was sorry it didn’t work out. I kind of wondered why he was sorry- if it didn’t work out, and we ended it, that’s better isn’t it? Than it not working out and we kept dating? I don’t know- it just scares me a little when people go into their dates thinking ‘innocent until proven guilty.’
Does anyone agree or disagree??
Jerry- hahaha