After the hats post, someone asked me “address” shirt color. I initially hesitated because what is there to “address” exactly? It seems to me axiomatic that the folks who don’t carry their hats around with them perpetually are generally the same ones who wear colored shirts. But eventually I figured that what she wanted was a sort of well-researched exposition of the white-shirt phenomenon.
So I looked into it. We all know that the yeshivish community seems to have something against non-white shirts, with a few obvious exceptions, like Chofetz Chaim. There are also other levels, like the “just blue shirt” crowd, the “any color oxford” crowd, the “anything with a collar” bunch, and the “what’s wrong with a t-shirt?” type. But among the yeshivish, anything not white or white-on-white simply won’t do. Granted, we often see things in black and white terms, but this is ridiculous.
At first I assumed it was because of a line of thinking explained by one Touro professor: he says that black and white are two colors that, no matter the shade, time of year, or circumstances, always, without fail, match. And they’re never out of season. And so on. Well, if you’re going to let a guy dorm from the age of 14, you can’t expect him to know that black and brown don’t “go,” so you tell him not to even try, just wear black and white.
To test my theory, I asked my father, who was wearing a nice brown plaid shirt, why yeshiva guys only wear black and white. “Because most sheep are either black or white?” he hazarded. Heh heh. Clearly it’s time for a family trip to the petting zoo. Instead, I pulled a picture of a great-great-grandfather off the bookcase and pointed to his white shirt. “Is he a sheep?”
“He’s a rav. Rabbeim have always worn white and black.”
Unsatisfied, I flipped through the album of my father’s pictures from his Israeli yeshiva days. All white shirts, but goodness, you should see the ties they wore!
“You’re only wearing white button-down shirts,” I point out.
“I was a yeshiva bochur in Israel,” he says, like it’s duh. Granted, Israel has always been way ahead of us in frumkeit mishigasim, but it’s still not duh.
“And they’re all yeshiva bochurim in Lakewood, so?” I didn’t ask. Instead I called a friend whose husband is a yeshiva yungerman in Lakewood. “Why does he wear white shirts?” I asked.
“Because his rabbeim do,” she answered promptly.
“Does he make fun of reggae fans who wear borsolinos?” I didn’t ask. Her husband wouldn’t know Matisyahu from a king without a crown, and certainly not about the new lucrative niche market for black fedoras. But it makes sense, after all. If you admire someone and want to be like them, you imitate them. That’s why young journalists copy the interrogation methods of seasoned veterans, and hundreds of teenaged boys who have never chewed tobacco in their lives spit when they step up to the plate, and hold the bat just like Derek Jeter.
But not all bochurim are wearing what their rabbeim wear. As part of the prep for this, I fired off an email to a brother in Israel who wears colored shirts and asked him to pass the questions along to the brother who doesn’t. Brother in colored shirts answered the following:
White or blue shirts. Nice button-down blue shirts. Why? Because I like them and I think they make me look good.
Pants: various shades of purples, pink, or yellow usually on the odd days of the week. On the even days, black.
Brother in white answered this:
“Colored shirts: no. Other clothing is generally dark blue or black, ties excepted. Three most common tie colors are probably black, blue, or gold.
A lot of different reasons. Mostly, the same reason everyone else has for clothing – because that is what everyone else is doing and that is what makes people happy. If I was on my own and no on e else was around? I would probably wear the cheapest and easiest to get clothing I could find.”
Which basically means he’s wearing white shirts for the same reason he doesn’t wear a doublet, a kilt, or a studded leather jacket. No need to schedule a visit to the petting zoo; it comes to us bein hazmanim. (Ooh, that was mean. I’m not much of a rock-the-boat person myself, to be fair. So maybe we’ve got a petting zoo all year ‘round.)
Anyway, my conclusion is that it’s just one of those things. Guys who are in yeshiva all day wear white, some because they want to be like rabbeim and some because everyone else is, and people started judging based on it, and there you go. Welcome to modern urban Jewish society. Hope you enjoy your stay.
that is a pretty good analysis… of one thing. why someone chooses to wear a white shirt when in yeshiva. And those 2 reasons might apply to some or even a lot of the people who wear white shirts. What about the fact that they look down on people who wear colored shirts, either in or out of yeshiva? The reasons you found do not explain that..
Comment by Rafi G — January 20, 2008 @ 9:29 am
Would you shift to womens fashions for a moment! What’s the objection in certain circles to denim? Why are chasidish women ( the Wsmbg type) forbidden to wear a dress/skirt that is maxi-length?
Comment by Frank — January 20, 2008 @ 9:55 am
Well this is something that I can comment on.
The first think I think that I should point out is that 100 years ago, most peoples shirts where white or off white, because one simply didn’t own enough changes of clothes to go for any level of style.
But it is not true that rabbanim have always worn black. Sometimes they wore dark brown, or blue. However, they did frequently wear black. Why? Because black was expensive and therefore an indicator of status. Furthermore, the frequently worn frock coat (in europe it was something often worn by rabbanim) was only to be worn in black, which may have contributed.
(although as an interesting side note, people tend to be more aggressive when wearing black, and black is seen as a more get up and get up kind of color, which means that black is not tznius, but thats a digression for another time)
Personaly when I’m in yeshiva or in brooklyn, I wear strictly black and white, or at least very dark shades.
outside of brooklyn or a yeshiva I tend to wear more colors, but generaly they’re strictly conservative type get ups that would be recognized as being what “a good american boy” might wear. IE something that is likely to be ignored. that means things like tan pants and a light blue shirt of some pattern, or perhaps navy pants and a yellow shirt. Maybe a sweater of some matching color in the winter. I also wear black and white from time to time but in these regions thats generaly taken as an aggressive or even fundementalist kind of dress, and therefore I tend to avoid it in order not to make a bad impression and hopefully be better able to influence people.
but seriously, in previous generations most jews were simply too poor to wear anything but dark colors and white shirts. (although women might have.) although the mishna berura states that one should wear colors on shabbos.
and I will also note that the whole people not wearing ties in the old country thing is simply not true. Most rabbis wore ties, and so did tonnes of other people.
Comment by Yoni — January 20, 2008 @ 10:03 am
Yoni – where does the Mishnah Berurah say that one should wear colors on Shabbos?
Comment by Anonymous — January 20, 2008 @ 10:05 am
I’m not entirely sure, but I have heard it quoted several times by different people.
according to some rabbis wearing black is prohibited on shabbos because of chukas hagoyim. his comment is in response to that but I’m not entirely certain where it is.
Comment by Yoni — January 20, 2008 @ 10:19 am
Yoni – I’m not saying that your claims aren’t true. However, they frankly sound quite bizarre. Unfortunately, there’s no way to check your claims or debate the issue with you because you quote random and anonymous opinions, ascribing them to a source as legitimate as the Mishnah Berurah, but without providing any citation. For the sake of an informed and intelligent discussion, please provide clear, concrete sources for your claims or else I’ll have to disregard them as unreliable and possibly nonexistent. Thanks!
Comment by Anonymous — January 20, 2008 @ 11:22 am
Yeshiva boys were black and white because over the years, they started imitating the Chasidim. Take a look at pictures taken pre- WW2. Plenty of light colored suits and grey hats. They dressed fashionably then.
Comment by Lawyer-Wearing-Yarmulka — January 20, 2008 @ 11:31 am
excuse me its been some years since I’ve looked at these sources. I just looked them up now and evidently the mishna berura’s comment was that white is better but should not be worn where black is the custom (beur halacha 262 beggadim neim) the beir hataiv (262:4) mentions wearing white, rabbeinu bachya is the one who states its forbiden to wear black (devarim 18:10-11).
I got the structure of the quotes right, but I remembered the beir hateiv as saying one thing when he said another, which caused the missatribution to the mishna berura. (my appologies.) (as the MB stated is comment on account of the beir hateiv, which means of course they have to be related comments.)
Comment by Yoni — January 20, 2008 @ 11:41 am
OK, so what’s up with the tablecloth question?
Comment by E — January 20, 2008 @ 1:31 pm
I’ll say this- there is a reason for everything and you can’t just throw things away. The reason people wear white and black is to show that they are part of, and identify with, a certain community that aims to have Torah imbued in their lives and that stand for certain standards. It’s like a uniform- if you work for a certain bank, then you wera their suit and colors. Doctors wear scrubs. Stewards and stewardessi wear the uniform of the airline. When you dress in the mode of the community, you show that you are a part of it, and their way of life. Obviously you’ll have the ones who don’t live up to those standards, but that’s life and part of every community. When you wear other things, it shows that you don’t neccisarily align yourself with that community and those values, so people can see you as standing for things other than what that commuity stands for.
And don’t say that you can’t judge someone based on the clothinghe wears, because, to a certain extent, you can. The clothes make the man. Someone who wanted to put forth a dignified appearance wouldn’t dress in soccor shorts and a tank top.
To get back to the uniform- when you dress a certain way, you show that you have a specific set of rules that you live your life by, and that guide your actions. You show a purpose, and a mission.
Comment by Mindy — January 20, 2008 @ 3:05 pm
Bad4-
I think your father was right. We have become so afraid of being judged “not frum enough” by others that we just lower our heads and follow the flock, without stopping to question why.
Comment by Superraizy — January 20, 2008 @ 3:08 pm
Also, if you actually do your laundry, it’s really easy to do one load of whites and one of blacks.
Comment by anonymous — January 20, 2008 @ 4:07 pm
Anonymous – my father dug up something like that too, in the Gemara, actually, about not wearing black or white, I just didn’t include it since it didn’t fit. So far as I can tell, Yoni tends to make sense.
Why people look down on others? First of all, not all do. My brother who’s being sheepish doesn’t look down on my other brother for wearing blue shirts. I doubt my friend’s husband would either. What both would take it to mean is that people in blue shirts aren’t part of their strictly yeshivish community.
Are there snobs? There are always snobs. There are people – and I bet there are some here – who look down on those who wear only black and white. People have been gathering in groups and getting ethnocentric/xenophobic since the dawn of time.
Lawyer – the pics I’ve seen are from the USA. Not sure about Europe. Also, it’s hard to tell their shirt colors in the black and whites. But many of the Europeans thought the Americans were all but irreligious anyway, so that might have been another way of differentiating. Also, if they wore black and white in Europe, then American boys who went to Europe to learn would probably come back in black and white. My grandfather did that studying thing – I’ll ask about his shirt shades.
Comment by bad4shidduchim — January 20, 2008 @ 4:16 pm
Oh, the other thing I often want to tell/do when people complain that colored shirts are “modern” is to tell them that so are collars and pockets, and if they’d come right here I’d razor them off if they’d like.
(not to mention the buttons on the arms of their coats, or perhaps they’d like to wear collorful coats with waistcoats as was the custom in the 16th century.)
Comment by Yoni — January 20, 2008 @ 5:11 pm
I’ll say this- there is a reason for everything and you can’t just throw things away. The reason people wear white and black is to show that they are part of, and identify with, a certain community that aims to have Torah imbued in their lives and that stand for certain standards.
Right, but wasn’t the question why black and white? The fact that it’s become a uniform doesn’t explain the reason for having those colors in the first place.
When you wear other things, it shows that you don’t neccisarily align yourself with that community and those values, so people can see you as standing for things other than what that commuity stands for.
But wearing different types of clothing doesn’t actually say anything about a person’s values. It could signal something, but it doesn’t have to. People just assume it does.
Comment by Nephtuli — January 20, 2008 @ 6:09 pm
Emphasis on the word: _so people *can* see you as standing for things other than what that commuity stands for._
These things are very individiual, I just wanted to bring out that point.
Comment by Mindy — January 20, 2008 @ 6:19 pm
Mindy, where I grew up (in South Jersey), the men of the Orthodox community wore hats in public because to wear a kippah outside of the home or synagogue would have been “too Jewish.” Now, in some Orthodox communities, a man who wears a kippah is considered “not Jewish enough.”
Allow me to introduce to “retired” blogger Adam Ragil of Baynonim, who published http://baynonim.blogspot.com/2004/10/old-man-last-seen-here-received-just.html
this interesting post:
Monday, October 04, 2004
The old man last seen here received just deserts on the second day of Sukkos. It was rainy, and a few of us were wearing baseball caps to keep our heads dry on the walk back from shul. The old man spotted a teen in a Yankee cap, and growled, “Can’t you wear a hat that says you support Torah?”
The teen pointed to the grump’s dripping Borsalino and said, “When you were my age, all a hat like that meant was that you were a gangster or a hoodlum. Times change, I guess. May the good Lord grant you years enough to see the day when a Yankee cap also represents Torah.”
The grump was speechless, the teen triumphant. The rest of us grinned and chuckled.
# posted by Adam Ragil : 8:34:00 PM
Comment by Shira Salamone — January 20, 2008 @ 6:25 pm
but doesn’t tzitzis and yarmulka serve that purpose wonderfully?
Comment by Yoni — January 20, 2008 @ 6:29 pm
You know what? I think you hit it on the button.
(but it’s still way more complex than that- ie- if you grew up with a black hat for you to switch to jeans and a suede yarmulke would be going “down”. Then again, it all depends on what type of person you are- maybe you’re the type who just isn’t cut out for the black and white. WAY WAY complex and very individual.)
Comment by Mindy — January 20, 2008 @ 6:52 pm
or maybe the person in black and white isn’t cut out for jeans and a suede yarmulka?
no?
why is black hat better? I don’t personaly think so.
Comment by Yoni — January 20, 2008 @ 7:37 pm
to be clear what matters is that a man be a mentch, both at home and in the market, and that he proudly display his yarmulka and tzitzis.
If he’s a mentch and true baal chesed and midos then he doesn’t need his black hat and white shirt to show how frum he is (and being that tznius is ikar, and a black hat and white shirt in many places is saying “look at me I’m special” he might very well refuse to wear it there) and if he lacks being a mentch, or a baal chessed or a baal midos, then all the black and white pinguin attire in the world will not help him.
like I read once, “and g-d forbid anyone should know his righteousness”.
Comment by Yoni — January 20, 2008 @ 8:12 pm
Interesting point there about tsnius, but you have to make a choice of whether you want to bring out that you affiliate yourself with that community and its (yes! don’t deny it- raised values), or don’t want to show your tzidkus. (we’ll use the term superficially here)
Of course we’re not saying that everyone who wears a black hat is a tsaddik, or neccisarilt follows the rules, or that someone who wears jeans is less frum/righteous than the black hatter, but generally, guys who wear black hats etc are less likely to watch movies, listen to non-Jewish songs, go to theaters, talk to girls, chat online, and other such things that you wouldn’t expect from a guy with jeans, that’s all.
Comment by Mindy — January 20, 2008 @ 9:22 pm
Remember that in any debate the point is to bring out the _other_ point.
I have a friend who, in any arguement, always takes the other side, no matter what her opinion is, and I find that human nature is to do that, just so that the other side is fairly represented. You can cal it arguementative, but let’s be optimistic and say it’s the sense of justice within us.
Comment by Mindy — January 20, 2008 @ 9:24 pm
Yoni – Firstly, you originally wrote, and I quote, “although the mishna berura states that one should wear colors on shabbos.” When pressed for a source, even you admitted that he writes no such thing.
Thank you for at least providing sources. However, they also don’t say what you attributed to them. The Biur Halacha doesn’t say that white is better. He states that if it appears haughty and arrogant in your local place (which I would argue is the case everywhere but maybe Tzefas today), don’t wear it. Further, he brings a proof from the Gemora that Torah scholars (who we would like to become) wore black on Shabbos.
The Be’er Heitzev quotes the Arizal about wearing four layers of white, corresponding to Hashem’s Divine name, something I don’t think any of us is holding by, nor an opinion quoted as halacha by the Mishnah Berurah.
Finally, Rabbeinu Bechaye is interesting, but considering that you’re the one who doesn’t like quoting Rambams which aren’t brought in Shulchan Aruch, I think it’s safe to say that Rabbeinu Bechaye’s commentary on the Torah, while valuable indeed, isn’t exactly a source we should be using to establish halacha, especially when the Mishnah Berurah says otherwise.
Comment by Anonymous — January 20, 2008 @ 9:53 pm
Btw, does anyone know that badforshidduchim has a facebook club?
Comment by Mindy — January 20, 2008 @ 10:07 pm
I assume we are all now at a consensus that what we wear on Shabbos has nothing to do with what the MB writes. Besides for the fact that he’s speaking of technicalities (as evident from his having placed it in BH rather than MB) this particular piece has no practical ramifications as is evident from the fact that no one wears all black or all white (the same can be said of the MB’s times).
Evidently, we subconsciously see some “spiritual” or “moral” advantage to wearing black and white on Shabbos. Even our color-shirted fellows join the white-shirt-toting masses to greet the Sabbath Queen, and I doubt it is a weekly act of repentance, of returning to our “true” values which the Yeshivah world clings onto ever so dearly. So, what indeed does all this black and white mean? I’m no fashion guru, but isn’t black-and white simply more dressy than color? (Fashion gurus’ input would be appreciated.) If so, there is a possible explanation as to why many Yeshivah boys wear black and white. As learning is a higher calling than working, the learners “dress up” for the purpose, and work clothes are considered demeaning. The reality though turns out in reverse, not unlike many other aspects of Yeshivah life (& life in general).
Comment by CG — January 20, 2008 @ 10:50 pm
By “reality” I’m referring to the fact that the colored-shirters are generally more more well-dressed than the white-shirters.
Comment by CG — January 20, 2008 @ 10:52 pm
So, Mindy, colored button down shirts and beige, brown or blue slacks are the equivalent of “soccor shorts and a tank top”?
Please.
Comment by Abbi — January 21, 2008 @ 12:08 am
Sorry for the double comment, but I have to agree with CG and respond once more to Mindy. The black and whiters tend to be shlumpier, dirtier and much more unkempt then pple who wear colored shirts. What’s so dignified and special about a dirty white shirt and ill-fitting black pants? Especially if “clothes make the man”?
Comment by Abbi — January 21, 2008 @ 12:10 am
and mindy, none of those have anything to do with being “better” or having “higher values”.
Comment by Yoni — January 21, 2008 @ 6:51 am
Black and white are traditionally more formal – think tuxedo. And everyone is responsible to look neat and well dressed.
“The black and whiters tend to be shlumpier, dirtier, and much more unkempt” – wow is that a generalization! Are you going to back that one up?
Comment by bad4shidduchim — January 21, 2008 @ 8:42 am
““The black and whiters tend to be shlumpier, dirtier, and much more unkempt” – wow is that a generalization! Are you going to back that one up?”
Spend some in Yeshiva, and you’ll understand. It’s a pretty accurate generalization.
Comment by Lawyer-Wearing-Yarmulka — January 21, 2008 @ 9:47 am
tis true bad4.
never sit in the mens section of a black and whiter shul.
it really smells something aweful. especialy if isreali cheredim are there.
Comment by Yoni — January 21, 2008 @ 10:12 am
“The black and whiters tend to be shlumpier, dirtier, and much more unkempt” – wow is that a generalization! Are you going to back that one up?
I don’t know if I’d say that the Black and Whiters tend to be unkempt than the Coloreds, but I’d argue that they aren’t dressed any neater. Is someone in a wrinkled tuxedo really dressed more respectfully than someone in a wrinkled suit? The idea behind the “uniform” is lost on many people.
Comment by Nephtuli — January 21, 2008 @ 10:18 am
Put the word “more” between “to be” and “unkempt.” Sorry.
Comment by Nephtuli — January 21, 2008 @ 10:21 am
Since my generalization has been corroborated by other first hand witnesses, I think that’s sufficient. I will add that since I live in Israel , this has definitely been my experience when I go through Geula or walk visit relatives in Har Nof.
The majority of charedi men I encounter are smelly, unkempt and just plain messy. Despite their black and white attire. Not all, since my brother is a recent convert to the charedi fold and he still maintains his polished appearance, despite his neighbors’ lack of interest in regular laundry and showers.
What I do not understand is the insistence on wearing black and white when doing household fixit jobs or fixing a care. It just seems so silly to me- how will it desecrate the Torah to put on a pair of jeans to fix a car?
Comment by Abbi — January 21, 2008 @ 11:58 am
sorry, that’s fixing a car not a care.
Comment by Abbi — January 21, 2008 @ 11:58 am
As an unbiased practitioner of devils advocate I find it ironic that the looked-down-upon colored shirt wearers here are the ones who are being most judgemental
Comment by Dr Evil — January 21, 2008 @ 4:16 pm
In my yeshivah, we wore white shirts because that was the rule. As to why yeshivish people wear the irresistable white shirt/black pants ensemble, I doubt there is a really satisfying response. Although some might suggest this now, there is no inherent kedusha in a white shirt as opposed to, G-d forbid, a blue shirt, it’s just that everyone in the yeshivish community wears them. As to how that came about, well, that’s a matter for anthropologists, but I wouldn’t expect there to be anything really profound about it. It was probably the default color scheme for a suit (minus jacket and tie, or cravat, or whatever) and was adopted widespread because yeshivas preferred that Jews look presentable and dignified. Eventually, this probably calcified in our psyche like our dedication to fedoras and the Chassidim’s ardor for long black frocks a la Polish noblemen of the 17th century. The fact that, in many places, wearing a nice pressed blue shirt and conservative pants looks worse than wearing the same cholent tinged shirt for three days is probably a historical irony.
Comment by Modeh B'Miktzas — January 21, 2008 @ 5:17 pm
Bad4,
Would you mind revealing which yeshivas your brothers attend/attended and how that matches with their colour preferences?
Comment by Modeh B'Miktzas — January 21, 2008 @ 5:20 pm
I think Modeh Miktzass comment describes it best. Oh, and PS, on a personal note.. in my family Im known to be the person that DOESNT care about what a boy wears….
Comment by Mindy — January 22, 2008 @ 3:40 pm