Bad for Shidduchim

February 4, 2008

How Important Are the In-Laws?

Filed under: shadchanim, shidduch research — bad4shidduchim @ 11:53 am

 

How important are the in-laws? I mean who are you marrying, anyway?

Remember the straight-laced lady who asked awfully difficult questions to everyone but me because “it isn’t done” to ask me?

I recently asked my mother whatever happened to her. My mother sniffed disdainfully. “I wouldn’t let you go out with her son even if she wanted you to.”

“Um, why?”

“You don’t want a mother-in-law like that.”

“Someone who asks searching questions?”

“No – someone so rigid. You know, she told the shadchan that the girl’s parents are supposed to support the couple for five years, but since her son wants to learn for longer, she’ll agree to bend the rules and go 50-50 for the term.”

I considered all my friends with learning husbands and tried to imagine which of them might be supported solely by their parents. Where do people get these idiotic “rules” from anyway?

“Meaning, she cares a bit too much about ‘how things are done’?”

“Exactly. How are you going to survive?”

“Do you think she’d be scandalized if I said I’d rather live in a cardboard box than leech off any of our parents?”

“I really don’t think you’ll get along.”

“Her son might be different, you know. And he’s the one I’d marry.”

“Doesn’t matter. You still have to get along with your mother-in-law.”

 

Another conversation:

“Would you consider someone with divorced parents?”

“Why not?”

“Well because… well what if they were both remarried?”

“You mean two sets of guilty parents to buy us wedding gifts? Four sets of grandparents to buy our kids stuffed animals? Sounds great to me.”

 

And one lovely visit to a shadchan:

“Would you consider someone with irreligious parents?” she asks me.

I consider the ramifications carefully, from English transliterated bentchers at the wedding to family reunion handshakes.

“Yes, I think I would,” I say finally.

“No, you don’t want that,” she contradicts.

“Excuse me?”

“It’s very hard – you won’t be able to eat by your in-laws – “

“ – They can order in and we’ll eat on plastic – “

“ – And they’ll want different things for your children – “

“ – If they want to see their grandchildren, which most people do, and if they’re reasonable, which most people are – “

“ – and your kids will get mixed chinuch – “

“ – they’ll ask questions and get answers. They’ll be religious because it makes sense and not because they don’t know an alternative. They’ll force us to examine our own beliefs, preventing us from becoming complacent Jews. If we can’t handle irreligious relatives than we have serious religious issues.”

“No, you really don’t want irreligious in-laws.”

“Grghmph!”

OK – I didn’t actually get a chance to say the italicized lines—I was too flattened by her roughshod treatment of my answer. Why are you asking me if you aren’t accepting my answer? Just go ahead without asking me.

 

Anyway, in all three conversations, the point was that I shouldn’t want to marry unpleasant in-law situations.

But who are you marrying – the guy or his family? Why not just date the entire family, already? You don’t have to spend your life with them. Worst case scenario, you organize a Lakewood kollel for Cambodia and take off for inaccessible parts.

I was grousing over these thoughts one Shobbos when the young married woman across the room burst out, in an unrelated conversation, “They say you don’t marry the family, but you do. And if you want my in-laws, you can totally have them.”

 

Sigh. OK – so add “perfect in-laws” to my list of “what I’m looking for.”

 

51 Comments »

  1. In-laws are important, but they are not that big a factor. If you like the guy and everything else seems to work, you’ll deal with the in-laws.

    Disclaimer: my in-laws are great. :-)

    Comment by Nephtuli — February 4, 2008 @ 12:10 pm

  2. …so you should definiely marry a guy with rigid, non-religios, divorced parents(-;

    Seriosly, my mom did not want me dating ba’lei tshuvah or boys from homes with divorced parents and guess what – my husband is both, and so far things are great!!

    Comment by momofsix — February 4, 2008 @ 12:12 pm

  3. great, recent BT, divorced parents, irreligious parent, TV owner – guess I’ll never make it in the East coast shidduch market

    Comment by Ben — February 4, 2008 @ 12:38 pm

  4. My only criteria is that they should be genuinely NICE. That’s all! Hope that’s not asking for too much.

    Comment by halfshared — February 4, 2008 @ 12:50 pm

  5. great, recent BT, divorced parents, irreligious parent, TV owner – guess I’ll never make it in the East coast shidduch market.

    Not necessarily. It just means you’ll have trouble getting a Flatbush girl.

    Comment by Nephtuli — February 4, 2008 @ 12:53 pm

  6. There is nothing to worry about in-laws.
    You’re absolutely right, if the guy is good, you deal with the in-laws.

    Comment by s&d — February 4, 2008 @ 1:24 pm

  7. well, from my perspective (and I’m not married) as long as the inlaws aren’t insane, or cruel or rigid, then I don’t think its so bad.

    But what about a child of divorced gerim with father and all siblings off the derech? (and the boy himself sitting squarely in the middle between ideological, scrupulous, punctual (ie not anything goes)yekkishe modern orthodoxy and chabad?) (ignoring the joke about getting a moshiach who comes on time when you cross a yekke and a lubavitcher…)

    ?

    Comment by yoni — February 4, 2008 @ 1:38 pm

  8. Forget worrying about the in-laws. No way you can possibly know ahead of time anyway how they will be towards you. We were three daughters in law of the same mother in law, but she was actually three different mothers in law–none of us had the same relationship with her that the others had. In-laws are like taxes; you’ll worry about them when the time comes.

    Comment by profk — February 4, 2008 @ 1:39 pm

  9. Really, really, nice, considerate, reasonable people can get divorced.

    Really, really, nice, considerable, reasonable people can be irreligious (really! I mean, just because I am demon spawn doesn’t mean all the hafifnikim are).

    In short, when it comes to in-laws, place the emphasis on character and not on criteria.

    Comment by Gila — February 4, 2008 @ 2:42 pm

  10. Wow.

    I didn’t think you could top some of your previous posts for degrees smart@$$ and naiveté…and then you do.

    Comment by G — February 4, 2008 @ 3:21 pm

  11. G – I do it just for you. If you don’t post something critical for a whole week, I get worried and try to come up with something you’ll snigger at.

    Comment by bad4shidduchim — February 4, 2008 @ 3:50 pm

  12. And this, my friends, is why I don’t date boys from Shidduchville or related parts…

    Comment by Scraps — February 4, 2008 @ 3:57 pm

  13. Gila, that’s why I said my only criteria is NICE. If they are divorced or not as frum..that won’t bother me. I’ve gone out with both types and it was okay. Nice is a character trait by the way.

    Comment by halfshared — February 4, 2008 @ 4:17 pm

  14. Divorced in-laws? Nisht geferlach. In-laws not religious? Nisht geferlach.

    But crazy in-laws (ie. possessive, unreasonable, critical, rigid)? Be afraid, very afraid.

    But even that can be mitigated if the fellow recognizes that there is a problem, and is willing to put some physical and emotional miles between himself and his folks.

    Never say never…because that one could be the right guy. Who knows? The right guy with the crazy parents might choose to “adopt” your parents.

    Comment by Ari — February 4, 2008 @ 4:43 pm

  15. B4S, I know you don’t need my help defending you, but seriously, G. If you have a problem with this blog, why in the world do you visit??? Just coming here to find something to criticize is unfair and really not nice. Go perfect your own blog first.

    Comment by halfshared — February 4, 2008 @ 5:05 pm

  16. I’m sure there are some small exceptions to this, but I’d presume that unless the in-laws are controlling AND that the spouse allows themselves to be controlled somewhat, in-laws really aren’t much of an issue.

    It is your life to live, not theirs.

    Comment by Ezzie — February 4, 2008 @ 6:04 pm

  17. B4
    -Oh stop, I’m blushing :)
    -Y’know, to my recollection I do not believe I have ever sniggered. Laughed, sure…chuckled, no doubt…even scoffed…but sniggered(?); I don’t know, seems pedestrian somehow.

    1/2
    -a)There are many, I dare say the majority, of posts that I do not comment on at all (and even those that I comment on in what you probably deem a more constructive manner). I criticize, to use your word, when I feel the post warrants it or where it may add to the general discussion.
    -b)With all due respect, if one cannot take the heat they should get out of the kitchen. The author, to her credit (at least I assume the author is a her, but who really knows:), does not seem to have a problem, this is as it should be.
    -c)Life’s not fair.
    -d)It entertains me.

    As for “my own blog”…alas I do not have a blog; on those occasions where a friend is kind enough to allow me to spill some nonsense on his blog I do not expect everyone to have a positive reaction and should anyone see fit to express so the comments are open to one and all…that’s kind of the point.

    Comment by G — February 4, 2008 @ 6:16 pm

  18. Alright I’ll stop. But I had a feeling you’d do some scoffing over this one. :-P

    I have no objection to loud objections to things I say or do or think or believe. I appreciate it because I’m willing to accept the incredibly unlikely (yet still conceivable) possibility that I may, in fact, be wrong. ;-) In general, I like it when people post objections, because if I’m missing key information or have too narrow a perspective or whatever, it’s good to correct my view accordingly. In several cases, I have, even if I haven’t mentioned it.

    Critical posts that do not garner my personal appreciation are posts that don’t present additional information (for example, G’s above post merely snorts [or scoffs or ridicules or objects to or whatever you choose] without explaining why), and posts that misinterpret my point or take it too literally and object to something I don’t think I’ve said (I think we’ve been through this one).

    That said, it’s a free world and an open blog, and I’m not going to stifle a voice (particularly a dissenting one) just because it insults me.
    Heck – my best friends do it all the time.

    Comment by bad4shidduchim — February 4, 2008 @ 6:40 pm

  19. Critical, posts that do not garner my personal appreciation are posts that don’t present additional information

    –Fair enough (no promises)

    posts that misinterpret my point or take it too literally and object to something I don’t think I’ve said

    –Cost of doing business, as you say this usually gets cleared up.

    Okay – that’s enough mutual understanding for one night, next you’ll want to sit in a circle and sing kumbaya

    Comment by G — February 4, 2008 @ 7:17 pm

  20. [wipes eyes from all the love...] {sniff}

    Comment by Ezzie — February 4, 2008 @ 7:30 pm

  21. To a point, you are marrying the in-laws, no matter what.
    However, I agree with what you said about the irreligious thing–that would certainly prevent you (and your children) from becoming complacent jews, and that’s EXTREMELY important, especially in this day and age.

    On another note, a woman was badgering me for hours about my close friend. The more she spoke, the better her son sounded for my friend. I was hopeful for my friend, but on the other hand, was concerned that she’d end up with a nutcase of a mother in law. She found out from other references that she was nutty, and she didn’t like her son anyway :-( But the point is, I was confused. I want my friend to be happy, but I don’t want her stuck in a situation with a nutcase for a mother-in-law.

    Comment by Michelle — February 4, 2008 @ 7:45 pm

  22. I don’t think that divorced or irreligious in-laws are such a problem- I like what ^ said. If the in-laws are nice, good, considerate people, sure thing. If they are conniving, mean, un-loving, etc., then stay away. No matter if they are married and religious.

    Everyone is so judgemental these days. Nice, good people get divorced and are baalei teshuva. Horrible people stay married and just hide “for shidduchim”.

    Comment by AidelKnaidel — February 4, 2008 @ 9:34 pm

  23. [yikes!/] No, no singing. Kol isha and all that. Definitely lets call it quits for the night – maybe even the week. 8-)

    The children of nuts have to get married too, no? One wonders to who.

    Comment by bad4shidduchim — February 4, 2008 @ 9:37 pm

  24. Dare I disagree? And vehemently? Having crazy in-laws can cause serious marriage problems, even a) if you live 6000 miles away, and b) with being married to a great guy.
    Just wondering if anyone out there who sycophantically agrees with the posting ever a) is or was actually married, and b) actually had crazy in-laws who make life a living hell. Anyone?

    Well then, you don’t quite know what you’re talking about, do you!

    Comment by Esther — February 4, 2008 @ 10:03 pm

  25. Esther — yes, I’m happily married. No, my in-laws are great (especially if they are reading this blog now). Yes, I know of in-laws that made life miserable (and yes, they aggravated what was already a shaky union).

    I think we need to differentiate between those in-laws that are psychopathic, which yours apparently may be (you have my sympathy), and those in-laws who are as idiosyncratic as anyone else, or are not religious or have been divorced. There are huge differences.

    Since this blog is all about (really good writing) and advice, I’ll play amateur radio-talk show psychologist, and recommend that your husband just say no to his parents. That is, if he wants you to stick around.

    As for sycophantic? Well, let’s just say that B4S is wise beyond her years. Who are we to poison the atmosphere? Let’s keep things helpful, shall we?

    Comment by Ari — February 4, 2008 @ 11:16 pm

  26. oy just imagine the woes of a ger

    Comment by anonymous — February 5, 2008 @ 1:25 am

  27. Hmm- I definitely agree that nice, reasonable in-laws should be the goal, regardless of religious/marital status.

    One thing that is important is the guy’s own relationship with his parents. Strained/strange/hostile/unresolved, even distant can be a big tipoff for issues the guy has as an individual and they way he deals with close relationships.

    I had a friend who married a guy who seemed great on paper but had a really odd/strained relationship with his parents. My friend said “Well, I’m marrying him not his parents”. Guess what? The marriage was a disaster because he had major intimacy issues.

    Comment by editrix — February 5, 2008 @ 2:47 am

  28. Esther–okay, I acknowledge that I am not married.

    Soooo… in order to put my proverbial money where my mouth is, I do declare that I would be willing to marry a guy even if his parents were (gasp!) frum and divorced. Just so long as they are not insane. Insane I simply do not do.

    Gila

    Comment by Gila — February 5, 2008 @ 4:06 am

  29. My wife & I are in-laws to people that we have very little in common with. As a matter of fact one set of in laws I hate. The others are non existent as far as I am concerned. However when there is a simcha, we share it with them with joy.
    Our kids who are young adults have great marriages and there never is a problem such as ” who are you going to eat by” I opine that ultra-orthodox parents are concerned with their own agenda which is vanity. In other words what will others think. So just as long as it looks good and the son in law wears the right type of hat (very wide cowboy brim) and the daughter (in law) conducts herself within the parameters of community standards, all is well in FrumDisneyLand even if they have an abusive relationship and one that has no intimacy:emotional or physical. So girls faget about the in laws and don’t mind your mommy & tati

    Comment by Mayer — February 5, 2008 @ 7:55 am

  30. editrix, and what if the mother of a boy (or the father of a girl) is/was abuse or an alcoholic, would you still say that the boy is someone to be wary of?

    (bearing in mind that kids do not tend to pick up on the alcoholism/abusiveness of the opposite sex parent. and further bearing in mind that said prospect has basicaly sworn off alcohol because it scares him/her so much.)

    Comment by Yoni — February 5, 2008 @ 8:34 am

  31. and also bearing in mind that said person is more than willing to work and put effort to resolving such petential issues.

    Comment by Yoni — February 5, 2008 @ 8:36 am

  32. I’ve said it before and it bears repeating: if you want a warrantee then buy a toaster oven, because marriages and human beings don’t come with them. Divorce between parents is not genetic although it may be therapeutic. In-laws are peripheral to the main event. Perfection is a word in the dictionary, not something that actually exists and is attainable. Worrying about in-laws before they actually become your in-laws is an exercise in futility, and is an excuse, not a bonafide reason.

    Comment by profk — February 5, 2008 @ 9:28 am

  33. I am engaged and my in-laws can be quite difficult, critical and demanding. This was hard to pick up on while we were dating – being that I saw them so infrequently and they kept pretty quiet until we were engaged. I am very lucky that my chassan (who is wonderful) always sides with me and is so understanding – but let me tell you, I know they will always be an issue, no matter how far we move. I would get engaged to him all over again knowing all this, but still, bad4 and all you commenters should know – difficult in laws will make your life more difficult.

    Comment by Anonymous — February 5, 2008 @ 9:52 am

  34. Esther
    -thank you

    ProfK
    -nobody is talking about looking for guarantees.
    To say that one should not care too much is of course a valid point. However, to go to the other extreme and say that one should not care at all, and if one does that they are somehow less “evolved” or being “difficult”, is being equally dim-witted.

    Comment by G — February 5, 2008 @ 10:44 am

  35. The children of nuts have to get married too, no? One wonders to who.

    -Again, good for those people who are willing to put up with that.
    Just don’t hold it against those who are not.

    Comment by G — February 5, 2008 @ 10:46 am

  36. You’re right and you’re wrong. You are marrying the guy. But if his parents mettle in his life all the time, they are people who you will have to deal with. It really boils down to how much control and interference does the mother have on the son.

    Comment by littlebirdies — February 5, 2008 @ 11:06 am

  37. G,
    A group of scientists was setting up a scientific experiment to test a hypothesis that they had carefully worked out. They did their research, they checked for errors, they discussed ad infinitum and then they came down to actually having to run the experiment. The results of the experiment did not correlate 100% to what they thought was going to happen. Things they had not even known to account for showed up in the results. What they thought they were going to get is not what they got.

    Having in-laws is like that scientific experiment. Until you actually have them you can hypothesize all you want, but you won’t know for sure. And the results can surprise you, both positively and negatively. Not in a million years could I have foreseen a few of the problems I had with my mother in law. And what would having knowing about them beforehand actually have gotten me? You play the hand you’re dealt.

    Dim-witted? Been called worse and have survived.

    Comment by profk — February 5, 2008 @ 11:56 am

  38. As mentioned above in a few comments, it’s really about not knowing which challenges will arise in your personal life. Of course a person would be most wary if they know the in-laws are ridiculous and controlling, but most often it is NOT known til after marriage.
    I know someone who doesnt speak to her parents (and half the family) anymore, the kids do not know their bubby and zaidy etc, its horrible and sad if you judge the couple. But if you would know the situation, it was “be married and live according to the in-laws or not at all.”
    So they live. And the bubby and zaidy dont know their grandchildren.
    a hard choice to make. A hard choice to live with. But a person must live, not be told how to live.
    everyone will have their challenges; Blessings to all – not to have this type.

    Comment by Lee — February 5, 2008 @ 12:36 pm

  39. Of course you can never know what will happen in the future! There are always unknowns. Why does that preclude one from caring about something that IS known?

    Which scientists would go to with an issue first: the ones in your example or ones who do not even set up an hypothesis, do no research, do no fact checking, engage in no discussion and jump straight to experimentation?

    Comment by G — February 5, 2008 @ 1:18 pm

  40. profk
    -I did not say you were dim-witted, I said the position was…BIG difference.

    Comment by G — February 5, 2008 @ 1:22 pm

  41. If you stay away from financial support things get much easier. The golden handcuffs are tough, often times. However, in our little yeshivish world this is pretty hard to avoid.

    Comment by jewboy — February 5, 2008 @ 1:28 pm

  42. Anyway, Yoni: Obviously, everybody’s situation is very different and obviously an abusive parent makes a huge difference to a given situation.

    However, in my friend’s case, abuse was not the issue and he displayed other strange behavior aside from his relationship with his parents. Suffice it to say, I really wasn’t surprised when they got divorced after 2 years.

    I do think a healthy, close relationship with parents is a great sign of emotional health in a partner.

    Comment by editrix — February 5, 2008 @ 3:18 pm

  43. I think in-laws are incredibly important. Of course, my husband and I dated for years through college before we got married, so i knew them well. But it makes a huge HUGE difference if you have a good realtionship with them. I love my inlaws like my own family. Since we live closer to them, its so nice that i can count on them to be supportive and whatnot. When my husband goes on business trips, I am totally comfortable calling my inlaws on my way to the train to say “i’m going to come home for a few days. can you pick me up?” and spending the weekend there. Last week my father in law called me at work to see how a presentation went – when i hang up with my inlaws, they always say “love you sweetie”. i had him on speaker and my coworker was blown away that someone could actually LOVE their inlaws. ha! I dont think you should choose NOT to marry someone b/c of their parents, but you really do marry the whole family and it makes things much easier if you have 4 parents instead of 2 and 2 inlaws.

    Comment by Jen — February 5, 2008 @ 3:27 pm

  44. just one observation I have about inlaws (and I don’t know much, none of my brothers are married as yet):

    it seems to me that regarding inlaws, if their darling child does things that they don’t agree with, they tend to blame it on their child-in-law.

    “my child would never do such a thing, it must be that dratted so and so corrupting him/her. I knew I should have never let them get married” (or some version thereof) seems to be at least iconic, if not something I’ve observed in the past number of years.

    I’ve never, ever seen someone’s inlaws remark how it was their child-in-law was straightening uip their child.

    Comment by Yoni — February 5, 2008 @ 3:48 pm

  45. B4Warned’s in-laws say that about her. ;-)

    Comment by bad4shidduchim — February 5, 2008 @ 3:56 pm

  46. “I’ve never, ever seen someone’s inlaws remark how it was their child-in-law was straightening uip their child.”

    Yoni – this isn’t true! Don’t give up hope =) My in-laws tell my husband all the time how lucky he is that his wife takes such good care of him and to do what i say =) i think that might be prevelant in families with all boys (my husband has brothers) and their mothers are relieved that nice Jewish girls are feeding/cleaning up after/and generally looking after their sons… In my experience (at least in my marriage!) even the most educated, hard working, executives need a wife to look after them. Men just can’t take care of themselves ;)

    Comment by Jen — February 5, 2008 @ 4:45 pm

  47. my family is all boys…

    but then on that usualy ment that we cleaned up on shabbos and helped cook, did our own laundry and cleaned house…

    ;)

    Comment by Yoni — February 5, 2008 @ 5:13 pm

  48. At least once a month my mother gushes on about how much she loves my husband. Of course, that could be because the serious relationships I had previous to meeting my husband scared the crap out of my parents, so that by the time I brought home my husband, they were so thrilled that I found I nice normal frum guy who would make a decent (if not great) living.

    Comment by editrix — February 6, 2008 @ 1:56 am

  49. Yoni- is the case you first described you?

    And also- yes, in my family we’re quite fond of saying how such and such spouse (the incomer, btw) really made a mentch out of the other. But then, we are quite a lovely family, if I do say so myself….

    And the whole bad4 G bit up there? L. O. L.

    Comment by Mindy — February 6, 2008 @ 4:37 am

  50. yes…

    Comment by Yoni — February 6, 2008 @ 6:24 am

  51. OK – I’m the spouse with the difficult parents.

    My mother-in-law was the sweetest person you ever met, and I miss her dearly. My father-in-law is quiet and undemanding in the extreme. An earlier poster referred to the spouse like me “adopting” his/her in-laws. That probably would have happened had we lived closer.

    But, but, but – I KNEW my family was off. Even warned my wife!

    Before marrying, I spent time figuring out what was off about us. And put effort into detatching from them, setting limits on their involvement in my life. And observed my Rebbe’s homes and other families to see what worked, and what sort of home I wanted to build.

    And we both wanted to move to Israel – which put considerable distance between us and our parents.

    My experience was positive for our marriage – because it forced me to consciously consider relationship issues while I was still a bochur. It seems that a lot of the lectures and advice for newlywed men is like the proverbial story of the donkey trainer – first you have to smack ‘em to get their attention. In contrast, I was consciously focused on building our relationship, and knew I could not fall back on what I “knew” to be “normal”.

    I don’t know if two people from dysfunctional homes should marry – but there are a lot of people who clearly know that their home taught them what NOT to do. Such people are probably going to be mature and considerate spouses.

    Comment by Ben-David — February 6, 2008 @ 7:49 am


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