So there I was at a shadchan in Lawrence giving her my spiel about how what he’s doing isn’t quite so important as why he’s doing it and how he’s doing it and she peers over her glasses at me. “Are you saying you are interested in a working boy?”
“I would consider one.”
“No, you don’t want a working boy,” she said firmly.
“I don’t?”
“No. Boys who aren’t in yeshiva at this age are the rebels. They have something against the system. You don’t want one of those.”
“Oh excuse me, I thought we were in Lawrence,” I didn’t say, while she continued, “Girls like you come back to me when they’re 25 and say, ‘Only a learner. Nobody on a vocational track.’”
“Well until I’m 25—“
“You want a learner.”
Aaaaaaaaaaaarghghphnglmp!
Maybe she’s right, maybe she’s right, maybe she’s right. She can’t be. Can she be?
In your world, it might be true.
Comment by Nephtuli — March 4, 2008 @ 9:45 am
I hate when ppl convince you of what you really want or need. I’m quite short and it makes me uncomfortable to date really tall guys – AND NO ONE SEEMS TO GET THAT! Any time I voice my opinion on the subject – that dating tall guys BOTHERS me… I am told of various couples that are over a foot apart. That’s nice. I don’t mind that they got married. If it works for them, hey, go right ahead. But what if it bothers ME?
Comment by single chickita — March 4, 2008 @ 9:53 am
“No. Boys who aren’t in yeshiva at this age are the rebels. They have something against the system. You don’t want one of those.”
Oh please. Someone who goes to law school after 5 years of post high school Yeshiva at the age of 23 is hardly a rebel.
“Girls like you come back to me when they’re 25 and say, ‘Only a learner. Nobody on a vocational track.’”
That’s a pretty stupid statement. A 25 year old female is presumably going out with lots of guys aged 27-29. Most guys that age aren’t on a “track” They’ve either long left Yeshiva or are one of those losers who is 4 years older than the next guy in the Beis Medrash.
Comment by Anonymous — March 4, 2008 @ 9:57 am
Above comment was me.
Comment by Lawyer-Wearing-Yarmulka — March 4, 2008 @ 9:58 am
*vomits*
Comment by Moshe — March 4, 2008 @ 10:01 am
isn’t bad4 something of a rebel?
Comment by yoni — March 4, 2008 @ 10:01 am
[rolls eyes Heavenward and prays for patience]
People like the one you describe are the reason why I don’t like “official” shadchanim unless they show they are yotzei min haklal.
Comment by Scraps — March 4, 2008 @ 10:18 am
What she said is absolutely true… In the charedi world its certainly rebellious to leave yeshiva so soon – of course anyone working is a rebel! The problem is that B4S hasn’t drunk the kool-aide…
Comment by Elitzur — March 4, 2008 @ 10:34 am
“Are you saying you are interested in a working boy?”
“I would consider one.”
–Since I have been instructed not to assume the worst and instead clarify before commenting (although I don’t see where the fun is in this approach)…
Does this mean that you would prefer a learner (all things being equal) and would only “consider” someone who’s working if he met all the other…”whatevers”?
Meaning, in your view does one who’s leaning start out naturally ahead and the worker is always playing catch-up or “yes, but only if…”?…because from where I’m typing it sure reads that way. Which is fine (your life after all)(like you need anyone’s consent), just clarifying.
Comment by G — March 4, 2008 @ 10:52 am
Yeah sure, a rebel, just like the tanayim and amorayim must have been rebels. Could someone please stop drawing ever smaller boxes that we try to stuff people into? Boy who is going to college or working so he can support himself and his future family–sure sounds like maturity to me.
Comment by profk — March 4, 2008 @ 10:53 am
Forget it, I can’t help myself:)…
“Maybe she’s right, maybe she’s right, maybe she’s right. She can’t be. Can she be?”
Well, well, well…dost mine eyes deceive me??? Is that be…could that be…doubt?!!
Comment by G — March 4, 2008 @ 11:00 am
Wow.
This is a shockingly sad little anecdote.
So according to this Shadchan most (or all!) boys who decide they are going to work for a living are rebels? Nice job of Motzi Shem Ra on a whole group of people there (Not Lashon Hara though – Lashon Hara is when its true!)
This is certainly untrue in Lawrence and I’m hopeful that is untrue elsewhere as well. That this perception exists to such a degree is very disturbing.
I find this particularly hilarious given that I’m from Lawrence, went to a black hat high school and was on a working track from the day I graduated (no year in Israel). People would get a good laugh if you told them that I’m a rebel.
Comment by Somewhat Anonymous — March 4, 2008 @ 11:17 am
I should note that if she had said that with a working boy you should pay attention to what reason he has for working (given the communal context) because if he’s working he is more likely to be a rebel who has issues with the “SYSTEM” this would have been entirely proper, even sage, advice.
Of course the same concept applies to making sure that a learning boy is doing it because he’s sincere and not just because he’s not driven to earn a living or that it was the path of least resistance.
It seems like this Shadchan doesn’t like to get past broad labels to actually find out about the person she is setting up – I wouldn’t waste my time.
Comment by Somewhat Anonymous — March 4, 2008 @ 11:25 am
so if you marry a learner, then are your parents expected to pay your mortgage and support you? I am not ultra orthodox so can someone explain how that works? can’t you marry someone who works and supports a family AND learns? nights, weekends, shabbas learning groups, etc?…
Comment by Jen — March 4, 2008 @ 12:12 pm
Lol, I think this is a funny story
A friend of mine had an almost identical conversation with a shadchan from a different city. Listen, I don’t know you and what background you come from…but she just may have a point. *ducks*
Comment by SIS — March 4, 2008 @ 1:03 pm
Maybe she’s right, maybe she’s right, maybe she’s right. She can’t be. Can she be?
If you don’t know if you want to marry a Kollel guy, I seriously recommend that you not date till you’ve made up your mind.
Comment by Lawyer-Wearing-Yarmulka — March 4, 2008 @ 1:07 pm
it’s like when you’re fourteen all over again and you’re mother is trying to convince you that you really really want to get that outfit…i wonder when they let you make your own decisions…
Comment by frumcollegegirl — March 4, 2008 @ 1:09 pm
I second LWY
“rebels” don’t go to law school. At least not past first semester. People who work for a living are…wait for it…workers
Comment by Ben — March 4, 2008 @ 1:47 pm
B4S – Trust your instincts on this one. You’re right to think that it’s not so much what someone is spending most of his time doing, as much as their motivation and attitude.
It’s incorrect to say that someone who isn’t learning full time is a rebel, as much as it is to say that someone learning full time is a tzaddik. That’s ridiculous.
As for the shadchan who insists she knows better? It’s like the guy on a date who insists on ordering a meal on your behalf. It’s just wrong, and you can be certain that he’s not necessarily looking out for your best interests.
Don’t follow the herd.
Comment by Ari — March 4, 2008 @ 2:21 pm
G – when people ask me if I want a long-term learner I answer, “I would consider one.” Does that clarify things for you? I will totally disregard your second comment.
LWY – I was wondering if she’s right about workers being losers. Not about whether I want one or not. (Though I should clarify, since there are nitpickers around: I don’t want a loser in any case.)
Comment by bad4shidduchim — March 4, 2008 @ 2:38 pm
Sad little shidduch fact: One must always tell the shadchanim one level “up” from what you actually want. When you ask for a guy with a concrete plan, they assume you want a college guy or someone planning to start working after he gets married. When you ask for a worker they hear a guy who went to work before completing the necessary yeshiva years.
Comment by frumgirl1 — March 4, 2008 @ 3:09 pm
bad4 I would suspect that you have loosers in both circles
Comment by yoni — March 4, 2008 @ 3:10 pm
Bad4, please email me.
Thx
Comment by JS — March 4, 2008 @ 3:14 pm
I am positively mortified with this mean-spirited and inaccurate depiction of young men who work. Young men who work often do not spend every free minute learning. But some do. Why don’t we act a bit more carefully before we resort to ridiculous stereotypes?
That being said, it seems to me that any girl can get married. I work at a company where a girl–a manager of a certain company–with serious social and emotional problems who hails from an impoverished family and is downright short and ugly was able to get engaged to a nice guy from a chashuve family. This boy knows–as does everyone else–about who she is and what her problems (she told me so), and he went with it.
If that is not encouraging for normal girls from normal families, I don’t know what is.
Comment by Anonymous — March 4, 2008 @ 3:21 pm
Fair enough…on both counts.
Comment by G — March 4, 2008 @ 3:45 pm
LWY – I was wondering if she’s right about workers being losers. Not about whether I want one or not. (Though I should clarify, since there are nitpickers around: I don’t want a loser in any case.)
Who said anything about workers being losers? I thought they were rebels?
Losers are single yeshiva guys who are still living in the dorms at age 28.
Comment by Lawyer-Wearing-Yarmulka — March 4, 2008 @ 4:08 pm
[gag, gag]
why are you wasting your time with her?
Comment by SaraK — March 4, 2008 @ 4:38 pm
Why? I would assume because she is wise enough to know not to always throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Comment by G — March 4, 2008 @ 4:47 pm
“Losers are single yeshiva guys who are still living in the dorms at age 28.”
That might be the best quote yet.
Comment by White Shirt/Black Pants - Working Guy — March 4, 2008 @ 5:08 pm
The Shadchan wasn’t saying that all working guys are rebels or losers. She said that in Bad4’s demographic the guys who work before they are married are rebels. And that might be true, depending on what type of guy Bad4 is looking for. There are different types of Yeshiva guys, but among the group of guys who go to Meir and then Lakewood to get married, if they decide to get a job at 23, they are rebels.
So, Bad4, are you looking to date that type of guy? Or are you looking for a more left-wing Yeshivish guy, the type who goes to Yeshiva and college (but not YU)?
Comment by Nephtuli — March 4, 2008 @ 5:23 pm
Nephtuli – Working makes you left-wing yeshivish now? I have to update my typologies.
Comment by Somewhat Anonymous — March 4, 2008 @ 5:41 pm
I guess I guy who realizes that they don’t want to sit and wam the bench and believe in supporting a family instead of being supported is off the derech. I glad I never met this shadchan when I was 22 and started working, because I would have slapped her in the face. I know the prevelant opinion is that it is assur to work and that you have to mooch off the parents and in-laws for a few years, but maybe that is why we have all these crisis’?
They are raising a generation of lazy tuchis’
Comment by rescue — March 4, 2008 @ 5:45 pm
Nephtuli – Working makes you left-wing yeshivish now? I have to update my typologies.
I think we need to define what a “working boy” is, and the definition changes depending on how old you are.
Comment by Lawyer-Wearing-Yarmulka — March 4, 2008 @ 5:49 pm
The question really is, in the Yeshiva velt, when is it “ok” to leave Yeshiva? In many people’s eyes, it’s not ok until you’re married and you’ve got no other choice but to go out an earn a living. Leaving beforehand (especially while still single) is a big no-no.
I still remember an encounter shortly after I left Yeshiva to go to law school. I was 23 at the time. At a wedding I ran into my former rebbe (who I was not exactly very close with) about a few weeks after the z’man started. He asked me, “where are you now?”. I replied, “law school”. His reaction was priceless. There was about 3 seconds of dead silence, then he deadpanned, “Oh”. Then he quickly wished me luck, and then left.
I was pretty shocked by the encounter. Truth be told, I had no business staying in Yeshiva anymore, and he knew it. Yet he was still surprised and disappointed that I left.
Comment by Lawyer-Wearing-Yarmulka — March 4, 2008 @ 5:59 pm
Nephtuli – Working makes you left-wing yeshivish now? I have to update my typologies.
Breaking down the categories into subcategories is not an exact science, but the category of “Yeshivish” is too broad by itself. There is a big difference between a Lakewood guy and the type of guy who goes to college and/or law school at 21. Working in itself does not make someone left-wing Yeshivish, but working before marriage is usually a good indicator that the guy shares other values with left-wing Yeshivish guys, like watching TV/movies, following sports, reading blogs, etc.
So maybe the shadchan was using rebel as a code for left-wing Yeshiva guys, and Bad4 is obviously looking for a guy who doesn’t fall within that category. That seems pretty accurate. LWY is right that she really needs to figure out what she wants. Is she looking for the type of guy who is interested in secular studies, follows sports, and went to college before marriage or does she want a learner who will learn until he absolutely needs to work?
Comment by Nephtuli — March 4, 2008 @ 6:28 pm
wow, bad4, please dont doubt yourself because of this woman! sometimes there are red flags to look out for…like if a boy went straight to work after high school, in our community, there probably a story there. but any guy who did his few years in bais medrash and now wants to be able to earn a living to support his family…hey, if you don’t want him send him my way!!!
Comment by leftover — March 4, 2008 @ 7:20 pm
She isn’t right. She’s just playing w/the extraordinary power that Shadchanim have been granted through our vulnerability. Don’t let her.
Comment by Michelle — March 4, 2008 @ 8:58 pm
i always said i’m looking for a mentch – working, learning – don’t matter as long as he’s a mentch and a ben torah.
went out with working and learning, and up until my chosson, the guy who was the most mentchlich was a working guy.
And i never had anyone tell me that i didn’t know what i wanted; that i really wanted a learner, etc. the only one who hinted to it was that working guy i went out with, but that was only cuz he kinda felt left out cuz all my sibs were learning at the time…
but G-d has the last laugh. my chosson’s planning on not only learning, but becoming a rav somewhere. LOL.
Comment by the dreamer — March 4, 2008 @ 10:21 pm
She can’t be right… I married an earner and he isn’t a rebel. But we aren’t yeshivish either
:)
Well b4s, I’m sure you’ve heard this before, but if that’s what your world has to offer: have you considered dating people from other religions? like YU types, RW MOs etc? as strange as it may sound, according to halachah they are jewish, and do keep all of Halachah (including working).
You know, at some point in history it was OK to marry people from other “sects” of Judaism. Jews even married people from other shvatim (wow, imagine not living one block from your parents but half a country away…). That’s why there are all the issues changing one’s minhag to follow your husbands, if people didn’t “intermarry” there would be no halachos about it. Even the great houses of Hillel and Shammai married each other. Why can’t we.
Lesson: It may be time to look outside the neighborhood.
Comment by rachel — March 5, 2008 @ 2:04 am
I think you had it right the first time. Someone who is fully committed to what he is doing whether it be working or learning is the main thing.If you get a learner, you want him to love learning. Not feel that he has to do it because everyone else is doing it.And if you find that guy and he has wonderful middos and he’s working to support a future family,and can’t sit properly in yeshiva,than go for it. Such stereotyping is ridiculous and unfortunately very common in the yesivish world. My question is- when did Lawrence become yeshivish?!?!
Comment by raizel — March 5, 2008 @ 11:57 am
Three comments:
1) If you are not old enough to be allowed to decide what YOU want and do not want, you are probably not old enough to get married and start a family.
2) The shadchan sounds like a nitwit.
3) “Working boy”…hmmmm…is that like, well “working girl”?
Comment by Gila — March 5, 2008 @ 2:43 pm
You really should carry cyanide capsules around for these kind of situations. Wait for that important phone call- successful shadchanim are always so busy- and make your move. We don’t have a shidduch crisis. We have a shadchan crisis.
Comment by Mister — March 5, 2008 @ 4:28 pm
“and can’t sit properly in yeshiva,than go for it.”
–What if he could but ::gasp:: chose not to?!
“Such stereotyping is ridiculous and unfortunately very common in the yesivish world”
–Nooooo kidding
Comment by G — March 5, 2008 @ 4:30 pm
If you like money, she’s wrong. If you think you can live without it, she’s right. Simple enough?
Comment by Simcha — March 5, 2008 @ 8:10 pm
people arent that black and white, they all have different journeys. especially considering that youre willing to date people from slightly different backgrounds, the “earners” and “earner learners” you meet might be very conservative by nature. if theres any truth at all to what the shadchan said, it still only makes sense for a very narrow segment of the population that grew up with certain cultural expectations.
Comment by Anonymous — March 6, 2008 @ 10:28 pm
i agree with the general idea of “who are you to tell me what i want” and that a boy who isnt in yeshiva isnt a rebel, but was it realy necesary to divulge the location of the shadchan? isnt pointing out where she is from and all the negativity you asociated with her and her home town…Lashon harah? you can say “i was at a shadchan” and stop there. by pointing out where she is from and making snide comments…. you are perpetuating wtvr negative stereotypes are associated with where she lives, and ironicly, you may put those seeds of negativity in others and they may decide against a shiduch solely because they heard bad things about that neighborhood. not nice, and totally lashon harah. i appreciate sarcasm, but lashon hara on a widely read blog is not good. please be more careful.
Comment by im not telling — March 7, 2008 @ 10:37 am
im not telling – clearly you missed the reason I gave a neighborhood. The woman’s stance has zero to do with her location. If anything, it’s antithetical. That was the point.
Comment by bad4shidduchim — March 7, 2008 @ 3:21 pm
Oh Puhleeze!!! I’m a shadchan (unofficially) from Lawrence and I try to make shidduchim all the time. It’s unbelievably HARD! Hours and hours and hours, aggravation after aggravation, and tons of counseling. And that’s counseling everybody, boy, girl, both mothers and if I’m lucky it goes to a first date. I don’t think that Lawrence has anything to do with the shadchan’s attitude. It’s more of her personal attitude. My family tree runs the gamut of Chassidush, Yeshivish, earning/learning, learning/earning,FFB covering hair but with T.V., Young Israel no hair covering but davening(the girl) every day. There are all kinds of combinations. Earning a living does not make you a rebel. Learning while you are young certainly strengthens a young man’s resolve to remain hashkofically strong. If you want someone who is frum, learns, works, etc. you have to make sure he is Koveah ittim. There are all kinds of people and all kinds of possibilities. Learning in Lakewood is not a guarantee of a shtark learning boy. Learning in Michlala does not mean you are modern. Y.U. doesn’t mean modern and Raizel Wright doesn’t mean that you are sheltered and closed minded. I have been trying to ‘red’ a really wonderful girl to a few really nice shtark learning boys. She refuses to hear about it because they don’t learn in lakewood. Another shidduch is for a learning in Lakewood guy, but the girls I have in mind are from Bnos Chavah, Me’Ohr and a really shtark girl from Michlala. I thought the mother would kill me when I said Michlala. Oh no, only a girl from BJJ or maybe Hadar would do. (The boy’s Mom is not too sure about Hadar either).
The point of this rather long post is that you have to believe in yourself, but be open to other options. I don’t know what you’re looking for, but if it’s a shtark learner and he just happens to have gone to school to get a degree in______(fill in the blank)that’s great. He obviously read the man’s requirements written in the kesubah. If you only want a full time learner, know why. And if he didn’t come from your ideal pick Yeshivah, find out about ‘the boy’ before you discount the shidduch. ALSO, don’t burn bridges. If you didn’t like the shadchan,just smile and say “thank you so much”, and move on to someone more your speed. Good luck.
Comment by Frustrated, But I Keep Trying — March 8, 2008 @ 9:15 pm
yeshivish girls don’t have blogs…so ya…… basicaly girl you are confusing!
Comment by a real yeshivisher — June 12, 2009 @ 6:49 pm
And real yeshivishers don’t read blogs, so basically, dude, you are confusing!
Let’s stop pretending everyone lives by the arbitrary boundaries society sets, ok?
Comment by bad4shidduchim — June 13, 2009 @ 11:19 pm
[...] as “in shidduchim.” It can’t be defined by the pro shadchanim, because I’ve only ever been to one, and since we disagreed on what kind of guy I wanted, I never heard back from her. So it [...]
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