>>Here’s one to ponder: Once we’ve agreed that we’re all jaded, what do we prefer – to have just one date before it’s all over, confirming our (pessimistic) suspicions, or to have three to five dates, that ultimately end up the same, and you “wasted” more time on it, but at least it gave your ego a bit of a massage that the other person isn’t repulsed by you and possibly even found you quite interesting…?<<
Posed by Yishkov L’vetach
It’s funny because this came up in a conversation with a friend earlier last week. I lamented not getting beyond a first date all too often. She asked, pointedly, if I’d rather go to the fifth date, get all emotionally involved, and have to let it go after that, with my family all asking me if I’m quite sure I’m doing the right thing… or being rejected, which is just as bad. I said it was a terrible blow to my ego that so few people seemed interested in spending a second evening with me. (My grandmother thinks I’m great – why don’t any of these guys?) She gave an ego-burgeoning answer that boring clone girls require more dates before you realize that they’re all wrong, but I still wonder.
So, the vacation post disregarded (I seem to do that, don’t I?) let’s open this one to the peanut gallery.
Speaking from my own experience, while it is good to have that one or two stretched out dating experiences (yeah, it can be a self-esteem booster or at least reassurance that you are normal and can sustain a semi-serious relationship) once you have that just the one or two date sessions is best, if nothing’s going to come of it.
It depends on your personality, though; I have some friends that have had several intense and long dating experiences but are ready almost immediately to jump into another one. It makes them feel good and desirable to have that. Me, I would find it too draining and need some time to emotionally recoup, regardless of who ended things, or even if it was mutual.
Comment by starr — April 21, 2008 @ 10:40 pm
Or maybe all the boring clone boys are scared by someone who doesn’t quite fit into boxy expectations?
(How’s that for a backhanded compliment?)
Comment by the apple — April 21, 2008 @ 11:21 pm
Both.
Comment by Mindy — April 22, 2008 @ 4:05 am
Having thought about it a little more carefully, I think it’s impossible to have one rule for all scenarios. I went through a long spell of never getting beyond a second date; when I then moved into a one-date-only phase, I assumed I was getting worse at dating. Then all of a sudden I dated someone 15 times before it finished, and it occcured to me that, as difficult as it was to accept at the time, one date with the wrong person is a major chesed. But I needed the perspective (pronounced “e-g-o b-o-o-s-t”) I acquired from a longer and more emotionally-involved relationship to see it that way.
Of course, there’s another way of determining your preference, but it’s arguably less applicable to girls – the extra expense of seeing the wrong person a few more times. That’s a few more diet cokes, a few more parking meters, a few more gallons of petrol (sorry, gas…) etc. (I say arguably – the females will have to confirm, but I’m guessing that they may possibly have to shop for their next date outfit – or does daddy pay
)
Comment by Yishkon l'vetach — April 22, 2008 @ 7:56 am
One more thing I forgot to mention is you can almost do speed-dating if it’s one-date-before-you’re-told-to-sling-your-hook. You can shift a whole bunch of suggestions you never really wanted to exercise but came under relentless NMF/SMF pressure about. After a more emotionally-involved experience, you need recovery time ,as starr said. (I don’t buy into those who claim they don’t need recovery time – they’re either not dating right, or not quite human – no offence, starr).
And we all know that you have to go out with a certain pre-ordained number of people before you meet your zivug, right?
Comment by Yishkon l'vetach — April 22, 2008 @ 8:04 am
On the issue of ‘Are You Boring?’
Being scientific about it and judging by your blog posts and the amount of people who vist, read and comment on them, I’d say not. But perhaps everyone’s expectations are too high? That might be a common element running throughout the shidduchim thing.
Also, I don’t think much of young American males. Spending a year in an american yeshiva was an interesting experience, but I don’t think half of them have the maturity to actually go on shidduchim. Their expectations were ridiculously out of synch with the real world. They were looking for 19-21 year olds who would essentially be professional cooks and maids. If this thinking expands beyond my particular experience with the American eligible and the “boxed type” girl the american guys are looking for in general, I am not sorry you do not fit the stereotype, if indeed you don’t.
Good for you, and continue to be interesting! You’ll find someone who appreciates you eventually, it’s a statistical fact =)
Comment by Jewish Sceptic — April 22, 2008 @ 10:11 am
Jewish Sceptic – many of us young american males who are not the best bochur in lakewood or full yeshiva education types who are baal teshuva/ger tzedek have real expectations. Too bad its so hard to get a shidduch, because our mothers didn’t have shabbos table table cloths and everyone in the neighborhood doesn’t know our whole family dynasty and so on and so forth! I have a question though: How many people would go on a shidduch with a baal teshuva or a ger?
Comment by anonymous — April 22, 2008 @ 1:08 pm
anonymous – in response to your question to all, i have to divide my theoretical and practical answer. As a kohen, it may sometimes be problematic for me to date a baalas tshuva, and it is certainly forbidden for me to marry a giyores (unless she was under 3 when she converted, but let’s not get into that). But if i wasn’t, i definitely wouldn’t dogmatically rule it out (how’s that for a definitely maybe). But then it’s easy for me to sound flexible when i don’t have to put it into action.
Jewish Sceptic – I also don’t think much of young American males! (with full apologies to my many American friends from yeshiva) I would blame it on the effects of too much television (as one of my old Rebbeim in yeshiva did, when singling out us Brits for praise), but it seems to affect the non-TV-consuming sector as well. It seems to me that these expectations of a cook-cum-maid are simply one step behind – don’t they realise they can get a second wage in addition nowadays!! Or is that a principle wage…? Apologies to the many intelligent female readers (and the venerable baalas haBlog) – I intend to stick to the obligations in the kesuba, should I ever merit to be encumbered by one.
Bad4 – please steal the floor back from me!
Comment by Yishkon l'vetach — April 22, 2008 @ 2:24 pm
yishkon I totally understand, you being a cohen, as that is a different and special case!
Comment by anonymous — April 22, 2008 @ 2:54 pm
anonymous – I challenge anyone to take on my situation. Try being an over 30, BT kohen living in the Caribbean. Then you’d know the definition of being in a difficult situation. I take that back, I don’t want to challenge anyone with my predicament. No one else should have to endure it.
Comment by Adam in the Caribbean — April 22, 2008 @ 3:15 pm
Hey, let’s have the best of both worlds: you say no after the first date. That way, you don’t have the rejected feeling of not having been asked out again, and you’re spared the emotional involvement of a long but pointless courtship. Walla!
Comment by Anonymous — April 22, 2008 @ 3:16 pm
Just out of curiosity, Adam – why do you live in the Caribbean?
Comment by the apple — April 22, 2008 @ 5:36 pm
I’m in the Caribbean to suffer for all my averos. Puerto Rico is currently the world’s capital for pharmaceutical and biotech manufacturing and I happen to work in the areas of manufacturing support, technology transfer, as well as process development and improvement of biotech human therapeutics. I took the assignement when I was unemployed, thinking I’d put in my two years and transfer to a difference site within the organization. Two and a half years later and surviving one company downsizing, I’m still here with no move to another site available for the foreseable future. I’ve been looking for work outside of my organization. Recruiters are drooling over my education and experience, but I’ve had no takers yet.
Comment by Adam in the Caribbean — April 22, 2008 @ 7:04 pm
basically its a lose lose situation. You keep going out only once, you start to get nervous…maybe it’s me?? maybe my expectations are too high? maybe i’m boring? but if you get involved with someone by going out a few times, and then it doesn’t work out, well that can really hurt! so basically, til the right one comes along, there is no better way…
Comment by leftover — April 22, 2008 @ 7:39 pm
I find that when I am the one to say no after a first date, I can be accused of “not wanting to get married.” This is untrue. Nobody else was on the date with me to see what an awful match it was!!!
So, along those lines, having a string of single dates where the “no” is either mutual or you’re the one saying no, is certainly easier than the other way around. But the subject of constant rejection is likely to feel bad about him/herself either way.
Comment by Ahuva K — April 22, 2008 @ 8:15 pm
I don’t think one date is good enough, to be honest. It’s just too short a time… Like anything/anyone new, you need more than one day to get used to the person.
Though I love reading your blog, it’s a constant reminder to me how much I hated the shidduch system when I was frum, and makes me so glad I no longer have to go that route.
Good luck to everyone though, I hope you all come out alive! =)
Comment by Jewish Sceptic — April 22, 2008 @ 10:06 pm
i didn’t date anyone for more than one or two dates before i dated my husband. I found it to be a blessing. I was much less jaded from the whole shidduchim experience than my friends were and i looked forward to dates, whenever they did come up…
and i had/have no qualms about whether it could have happened… should have happened… maybe if i would have done something different…
Comment by dreamer — April 24, 2008 @ 6:55 pm
If I ever have to go somewhere to suffer for all my aveiros, I want it to be Puerto Rico.
Comment by Anon — April 29, 2008 @ 10:08 am
Anon,
I wouldn’t. I’ve lived across the US & Canada, not to mention Europe and Israel. This place is a complete and utter dump. If you like losing power and water for days on end (not due to hurricanes, but because no one does their job to execute repairs), as well as walking through raw sewage on a regular basis as sewer pipes rupture due to no maintenance of the sewage system, then I say do it. If you like waiting forever, it is often days not hours, for the any service agent to come to your house to fix your telephone, power, or water contections, then you may like it.
Add to all this that the FBI spends ten times more resources in investigating governmental crime than anywhere else in the US, that the violent crime in PR is huge with the highest murder rate in the US, save for Washington DC, and that it has the highest unemployment rate as nobody wants to work for a living.
I think it is a great place to visit when you stay in your hotel and get catered to hand and foot. But to live here, you have no clue how completely disgusting this place is. I have yet to meet a mainlander that likes living here. They might like the beach, but other than that, when they a being honest, they’ll tell you how they hate PR.
I have lived on the island now two years, six months, three days and five and a half hours (actual count) and I cannot wait to get off. I have never had such an awful time living anywhere and I have moved around a great deal. I would write more, but I am at work and do not want to be fired for sharing all of my feelings. Please bear in mind, I am far from the only one that feels this way and know many Puerto Ricans that feel the same way as I do.
Comment by Adam in the Caribbean — April 30, 2008 @ 3:02 pm
Rather let them say no immediately- because why risk the emotional involvement, attachment, only to be rejected, or to have to dump them and second guess yourself as to if you made the right decision.
Comment by NMF #7 — May 4, 2008 @ 11:49 am