Rereading the last post, I noticed a common thread. Most of the bad moves fell into the category of “not taking it like a man” or “not being a gentleman.” Sadly, modern men don’t have a Casanova role model to learn from. Really, the wonder is that we have dates who act like gentlemen, rather than the other way around. Maybe guys need to be exposed to more of the right kind of literature? I know and agree – Austen, Bronte, they’re all romantic chick lit. But if you’re out to get a chick, maybe it pays to find out what chicks like?
June 28, 2009
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Austens women for the most part believed in staying in the kitchen or drawing room. They also wanteed the dude with the most cash
Comment by Fakewoodnj — June 28, 2009 @ 10:41 am
Chick flicks as well I guess…
Comment by lomo — June 28, 2009 @ 10:42 am
Really, the wonder is that we have dates who act like gentlemen, rather than the other way around.
What is the other way round? Gentlemen who act like dates.
I read wuthering heights once, I thought it was for girls and anyway the guy in that was a bit rough, and uncooth. Is that what girls want?
Comment by anon — June 28, 2009 @ 10:51 am
Fakewoodnj — Elizabeth Bennet? Emma Woodhouse? They believed in staying in the kitchen? I somehow can’t see that. It was the social norm at the time, but I would not say that the characters were specifically like that. As for the money, there was a point in Pride and Prejudice when Elizabeth liked Wickham, who was basically penniless, more than the rich Darcy. It was only after she found out how rotten he was that she started preferring Darcy. So I suggest you read Austen’s works over and get to know the characters better.
anon — Heathcliff is more of a Byronic character, so although he is fascinating to read about, he probably is not someone to take an example from.
But I definitely think guys should read Jane Austen’s books. A big part of them is about English society and the interaction between gentlemen and ladies. As for the Bronte sisters, I think everyone should read their works, even if it is not necessarily what the guys should be learning from.
Comment by inkstainedhands — June 28, 2009 @ 12:27 pm
i know that elisabeth bennet wasnt but she was the exception not the norm. i forgot the girls name but she married the preacher because he made a good living. plus they were all full of crap. that romanticized version of love is bs.
I am a southerner so i open door for women regardless of date or not thats just plain good manner. i realized OJs dont really belive in manner. i actually was working in a jewish company and one guy told me manners are for the goyim.
Comment by fakewoodnj — June 28, 2009 @ 2:16 pm
Jane Austen and the Brontes should be required reading for all men seeking chicks, I think.
Comment by ilana — June 28, 2009 @ 3:15 pm
You mean Charlotte Lucas? She married him because she did not think she would get any other offer, and that was her only chance of being comfortably settled in her own home. I guess you can say she married him out of desperation; not because he had a ‘good living.’
And I don’t think we are talking about love or romance here; the point is that they were well-mannered. Manners aren’t just about opening the door. It is also the way you talk and the way you behave in general.
Comment by inkstainedhands — June 28, 2009 @ 3:25 pm
I liked Pride and Prejudice and Zombies.
Comment by Ben — June 28, 2009 @ 4:23 pm
again manners are for the goyim.
Comment by fakewoodnj — June 28, 2009 @ 4:28 pm
Bronte is not where men will learn how to be a gentleman (although the Bronte books are GREAT reads). But Jane Austen – hear hear! I’ve actually heard guys secretly really enjoy Austen.
Also, the big thing is Austen isn’t that the girls want to marry for money (even though money IS a huge part of Austen). It’s the new idea (at the time) of marrying your equal – someone who will be a companion to you instead of just for inheritance or convenience.
Comment by Erachet — June 28, 2009 @ 6:02 pm
Emma, by the way, is a book all about Shidduchim. (Well, they all are, but Emma in particular.)
Comment by Erachet — June 28, 2009 @ 6:03 pm
i dunno, the gemora is (for its time) a remarkable compendium of romantic maxims.
Comment by yoni — June 28, 2009 @ 6:25 pm
First of all, Healthcliff is the hero of Emily Bronte’s Wuthering Heights, but is no model for husband material. His wife has a miserable time of it. The Brontes should not really be lumped together, as there were 3 different sisters who wrote novels. (Everyone seems to forget about Anne, author of The Tenant of Wilfell Hall and Agnes Grey). Charlotte Bronte hated being compared to “Miss Austen.” There are famous letters on the subject between herself and George Lewes. But what their novel heroines have in common is commanding the respect of their suitors. Elizabeth rejects Darcy for all his wealth and status because he delivers his proposal with disdain for her position. Jane rejects Rochester when she cannot have an honorable position as an equal and also rejects St. John who would force her into his own mold for a missionary’s wife. I have a somewhat subversive take on Emma, which is traditionally read as one of the novels of education for the heroine, but I won’t go into that here.
Comment by Ariella Brown — June 28, 2009 @ 10:33 pm
I think the above is the reason for the Shidduch crisis ppl excpect there dates and lives to live up to sleazy movies and roamance novels.
Comment by Anonymous — June 28, 2009 @ 11:29 pm
Anon- You consider Austen sleazy? That’s a rather different take on Georgian-Regency England.
Comment by NMF #7 — June 29, 2009 @ 5:20 am
Fakewood (and others), somehow a lot of posts on this blog have recently turned into bashing sessions of frum people or specific groups. I’m a long-time reader of this blog, and while Bad4 does a glorious and humorous job of highlighting the frustrations of the shidduch scene, I don’t think her intent was or is to ever make fun of Klal Yisroel o chelek me’hem. Let’s please try to have a little more ahavas Yisroel (even ahavas chinam) before we speak our minds. (Also, let’s remember that this blog is on the world wide web and open for everyone to see. There’s enough negativity out there, we don’t need to fuel the fire.)
And furthermore, the “manners” comment was clearly a joke at best or a terrible remark at worst. How could you take such a line that you surely realize is wrong and say that a whole group of people behave that way? Please. Trust me, I am aggravated by the shidduch scene too, but it’s a nisayon of galus, and I don’t think that making fun or accusing others is going to help us pass this nisayon or deserve the geulah.
With respect and humble pleading.
Comment by BSD36578 — June 29, 2009 @ 1:05 pm
i think most people realized i was being sarcastic.
Comment by fakewoodnj — June 29, 2009 @ 1:41 pm
oh and the comment when it was said to me wastn a joke.
Comment by fakewoodnj — June 29, 2009 @ 1:42 pm
the parallels between austen’s shidduch crisis and ours is quite striking…
Comment by jb — June 29, 2009 @ 4:03 pm
Well, I have come across (friends have as well) lots of guys who think they’re hot stuff, what with their “lists” and all and seem to have an attitude that they are doing a favor to the girl they are going out with because so many girls are desperately trying to go out with them–they could definitely take a leaf out of Mr. Darcy’s book.
And as somebody said above, the Brontes aren’t necessarily the books to read as a guide to dating and marriage (maybe The Tenant of Wildfell Hall–you learn the importance of checking somebody out). I love Charlotte Bronte’s writing, but I wouldn’t want to date or marry somebody like the characters in her books.
Comment by anonymous — June 29, 2009 @ 8:32 pm
Isnt it possible telling men to read Austen is like telling women to read porn? Obviously its not on the same level but chick lit, romance novels etc are sometimes called porn for women. It promotes something which in the vast majority of cases will not happen. Many woman say theyre looking/waiting for Darcy. Can you imagine if a guy said to his wife/gf that he was looking for-insert actress/character in book?
Comment by israel — July 1, 2009 @ 9:10 pm
israel – the women generally mean they are waiting for someone who may be a bit rough on the outside, but charming and golden-hearted inside. if a guy said he wanted someone like Jessica Simpson, should be believe he means a woman who is modest and demure, or are we forgiven for thinking it’s about her body?
Comment by bad4shidduchim — July 1, 2009 @ 11:15 pm
in response: first i think (correct me if im wrong) but many peoples views on this are influenced by the bbc movie. Implicit in their liking of Darcy is that hes supposed to be handsome and rich. also is there any way in real life that someone who got humiliated by someone akin to what happens in P and P would then even give him a chance? Im sure if something like that happened it would be posted on this blog as how not to act. So it would be ok if the guy said hes looking for Elisabeth? And who knows maybe Jessica Simpson is also charming and golden hearted and shes just a little immodest on the outside.
Comment by israel — July 1, 2009 @ 11:29 pm
israel — I think there is a difference between fictional characters and actual actors/actresses. When a girl says that she’s looking for Mr. Darcy, she is most likely talking about the personality of the character, and there is nothing wrong with that. He is only a part of literature, so chances are that it’s not about the looks. (Of course, there are those who are influenced by the way these characters are portrayed in films, but I still think there is a difference between talking about a character and talking about an actual person.) You do have a problem though if she says she’s looking for Colin Firth.
The same would go for guys. A guy can say he wants an Elizabeth Bennett. I don’t think I would mind hearing that. But what I certainly would not want to hear is that he wants a Keira Knightley or a Jessica Simpson.
There is just a difference between talking about fiction and talking about reality, and adoring a fictional character of the opposite gender is not the same as adoring an actual person.
Comment by inkstainedhands — July 1, 2009 @ 11:42 pm
Ive read P and P and the most compelling character to me was the father. If girls were looking for someone with a nice albeit somewhat condescending attitude they would say that. When they say Im looking or waiting for a Darcy, implicit in that is the whole package, ie riches, status, Pemberly etc. Its not impossible to find someone with the qualities that you say are found in Darcy, but to say youre looking for Darcy, or for a man to say hes looking for a character in a book, betrays a lack of real life understanding. My problem is that no one can comare or live up to a fictional character and that is what many woman seem to try to have by expressing a wish for Darcy. You mention you wouldnt mind someone looking for an Elisabeth. What if he was looking for a Lady Chatterly (obviously not in regards to cheating though). Also from reading the post “Lesson Learning” anyone of those men could’ve been a Darcy except they screwed up. Maybe thats the lesson of P and P that men can learn from their mistakes.
Comment by i — July 2, 2009 @ 12:06 am
[...] a reader asked, “Wouldn’t you be insulted if a guy said he was looking for an Elizabeth Bennet?” The answer, [...]
Pingback by Marry Your Match « Bad for Shidduchim — July 21, 2009 @ 8:45 am
So basically – guys should educate themselves bout what women like, then learn how to ACT like that (not actually be real, just market yourself exactly to what the “consumer” wants) and then we’ll have plenty of wonderful marriages??? And to top it off, lets use women’s romance books as a teacher?
How bout guys go and learn what real women look for in REAL men, not fictional glorifications of the perfect man.
How? Not sure… but this way seems quite unhealthy.
My Rabbi once said to me – marry someone who is a nice proper person.
Comment by Bz — July 22, 2009 @ 9:40 am