I was reading this post by FnF about being a different person at work and on a date. And my gut reaction was, “I sooo disagree.” Then I realized that my disagreement didn’t mean much, as I’m still single. And then I realized that her statement didn’t mean much either, because she’s also single. (But seriously, FnF – you were exaggerating, right?)
Now, don’t get me wrong. One wants to be more businesslike at work and more personable at play. But pretending to be a soft, silly, feminine thing when you’re not is bound to fail in one way or another. Either you’ll bore him, because he wants someone with a drop more spine; or you’ll fail, because you can’t hold the charade that long (my problem); or you’ll dump him, because you can’t envision spending your life with the kind of guy who wants a milksop hanging off his arm.
I have definitely tried both tacks. Indeed, I start out by being mild and agreeable. This, I think, is generally advisable when you’re spending time with someone you don’t know very well (or at all). We have long ago established the disaster that can ensue when someone lets their personality unchecked liberty, without consideration for the opposite party. But even when I’m mild and agreeable, I’m not awfully feminine. My handbag doesn’t sit in the crook of my elbow, and I tend to walk at NYC sidewalk speed, which sometimes leave the OOT guys behind. But otherwise, I’m definitely more charming than I tend to be IRL.
But I’ve yet to go out with a perfect guy, and the best laid plans of mice and men go awry. (I date men.) And having that wonderful, Jewish attribute of mercy (is it also feminine?), I can’t bear to see a guy flounder. So I’ll suggest a restaurant that doesn’t have a line out the door, a museum that is actually open, an attraction that has its own parking lot, a good place to walk that isn’t littered with sunbathers, or whatever is necessary. And I’m afraid that once that ruthlessly efficient genie starts peeking out of its lamp, it is perishing difficult to squish it back in.
I mean, is there a feminine way to give a guy directions?
Hm. Probably. The GPS does it. I guess I can cultivate a husky, musical voice and practice making imperatives sound like suggestions. It must be something in the inflection. That way of saying, “Turn left” and lifting the tone at the end oh-so-slightly… Or would sounding like a GPS make me seem more mechanical and less “feminine”?
What on earth is “feminine” anyway? At least we can say that the “gentleman” is some sort of idealized archetype. But isn’t there some rule that feminine is as feminine does? Come on: we all know that femininity today is something quite different than in days of yore. Case in point: I’ve got this multi-function tool in my handbag. It’s a pliers, officially, but the guys at Gerber decided to make it more useful by sticking extra functional gewgaws into the handle. So in one handle they put the always versatile blade and screwdriver. But then they were stumped about what to put in the other handle. The committee sat down to ponder the question: what does the kind of person who carries a pair of pliers and a knife really need most in the course of a day?
The answer, of course, was a nail file.
But back to the problem of taking charge while trying to seem pliable and admiring and feminine…
(Why do I have this feeling that I’ve written about this already? Because I have… Femininity over here.)
And about sounding smart: so, yes. I’ve had trouble there. But there were many more times when the guy was gratified to have someone who not only understood what the heck he was talking about, but could also ask intelligent questions on the subject (!!). It should be noted that the sort who found smartness disconcerting were not generally the high-power yeshiva guys. They were usually the low-end of both yeshiva and college types. Keen minds appreciate keen minds. It’s only the humbugs who feel insecure.
I’ve got a friend who can go on for a solid half hour about the medical aspect of varicose veins. This does not – I must point out – detract from her femininity; she is among the more feminine people I know. She just happens to be obsessively inspired by the sort of medical details most of us would prefer not to think about. When she gets started about medical nomenclature for holes in the heart, I find it riveting. So does her husband. Not because we’re absorbing much, but because it’s fascinating to listen to someone who is really and truly enthusiastic about what she’s saying. And this will work for any person and any of their interests. (The friend who walks around with a camera stocked with photos of epithelial tissue is also married. Just goes to show.) If someone likes you, they’ll be fascinated by the things you’re fascinated with. Or just fascinated by your fascination. Either way, it’s irrespective of the subject.
Now that point about agreeing with everything he says – hold fire. I think that deserves a post of its own.
WOAAHHH!
I have never felt such strong disagreement with your posts as I do here.
“being a different person at work and on a date. And my gut reaction was, ‘I sooo disagree.’ ”
Talking about holes in ones heart, various aspects of litigation or the coolest computer program you ever wrote has nothing to do with the way you BEHAVE.
At work there is a certain distance. The conversations should be mostly businesslike and even when there is banter it would usually be somewhat distant you are not trying to develop a relationship (on any level other than work) with these people. You are WORKING.
On a date you are there exclusively for the PEOPLE aspect you should be speaking to the PERSON showing interest and caring about the PERSON. If you were on a date with a guy and it was a total mismatch would you chat about holes in hearts because you wanted to talk about it or would you try to make the time bearable for him so chat about something easier for him?
This has NOTHING to do with acting feminine. A lot of what today would be considered acting feminine would be totally inappropriate for anything but a married couple in the ultra orthodox world.
I must be misunderstanding you point.
Comment by patricia batton — June 30, 2009 @ 8:26 am
Definitely on your side here. If there’s ever a place you might need to switch personas, it’s work: Marriage you do as part of life, and it matters for itself. Being someone else for marriage must be miserable. Work you do partly because you like it, but partly because it’s a paycheck you need. If that means sacrificing a little of that “OMG, I can’t believe my boss is a moron” attitude, it might be worth it.*
* Note: Or even then you might feel it’s not worth it to “shut up and take it”. That might result in your getting an involuntary (but government subsidized!) year off, but that’s only worth it if you get to save on babysitting too. Not that I have any experience with it or anything.
Comment by Ezzie — June 30, 2009 @ 8:43 am
Oh, and my boss is dumb but I come to him for advice ALL the time. I want him to promote me and he has the power to do that. I certainly wouldn’t ask a dumb date for advice, nor would I marry him. Am I two different people?
Comment by patricia batton — June 30, 2009 @ 9:27 am
FnF was saying that her true, natural self is at the office, while she switches to a breathless Southern belle mentality on a date: “My, aren’t you dashing, brilliant, and handsome, and I am so not worthy of you!” Femininity, she seems to say, means compartmentalizing her commonsensical, capable, intelligent self into that of a stereotypical blonde (my apologies to the yellow haired readers).
When I go on a date, I dress to kill, wear a showgirl’s quantity of makeup, and adorn my weight in bling. That is as far as I differ from my day to day self (ponytail, glasses, no makeup, Converse). I won’t agree with stupid statements, I will bring up the last amazing shiur I heard, and use big vocabulary.
So there begs the question: What sort of femininity do we mean? The feminist movement abolished the requirement for Scarlett-ness on date, didn’t they? So is femininity batting the eyelashes, or understanding good clothing, or having a preference for pink (gag)?
Comment by Princess Lea — June 30, 2009 @ 11:46 am
As one who has been in both places for longer than most of you bloggers are old, you need to switch gears as you move from office to frum life every day. I call my boss Joe and my husband’s best friend Rabbi xxx, I switch the Boruch Hashems to the Thank g-ds if I use them at all. I hope to come to work erev pesach with NOONE guessing that I’ve been cooking straight and just disposed of the last of 15 cartons of eggs.
Difference is, my husband likes leaving all things technical and financial to me.
Comment by Been There Done That — June 30, 2009 @ 12:53 pm
(PL, I think a preference for black is more culturally relevant here)
Comment by s — June 30, 2009 @ 1:29 pm
True! But I confess, I do own items of that lack of color, but does that now make me feminine? Blah.
Comment by Princess Lea — June 30, 2009 @ 3:17 pm
well, at least traditionaly femininity was defined as a number of things:
taking an interest in children, cooking and other domestic issues.
Being gentle and soft spoken.
Not being overly forward and a sense of subtlety.
being modest as well as deferential.
being a man meant: interest in sports, fixing things, etc.
Being assertive (or even aggressive) and “knightly”
Being respectful, and treating women with a certain gentleness.
Having a sense of ambition
somehow these translated into:
women should be stupid, indecisive, and uninterested in anything with men
and for men:
Pervs, rude, crude, aggressive and demanding as well as insecure and controling.
dunno how that happened.
Comment by yoni — June 30, 2009 @ 3:52 pm
I happen to think vericose veins are attractive.
Comment by joey — June 30, 2009 @ 3:54 pm
Patricia – yes, you do misunderstand.
Because your personality is the same at work and at home. At work and at home I will be quick and efficient, friendly to those around me, funny when I feel like it and reclusive when I don’t, interested in a myriad of subjects and willing to share any knowledge I’ve accumulated. I will (try to) be considerate of others, modest but assertive, helpful, etc etc and a good boy scout.
The main differences are that at home I can be more personal and at work I am more distant, and at home I can count on others to forgive lapses because they have to while at work I don’t have that privilege. And at home I have more latitude to express feelings like silliness and anger and pursue my own whims.
It should be noted that most of the differences between home and work that I mentioned also apply to dates. One can’t always count on a date to forgive lapses, and one doesn’t kick off one’s shoes and run barefoot through the grass on a date just because they feel like it, and one avoids negative emotions on a date.
FnF’s post (I apologize, perhaps I should have quoted it) makes it sound like she is a passive, simpering, and dependent being, while at work she’s a strong, independent, modern woman.
As I said (second paragraph) you want to be more personable away from work and businesslike in the office, but that doesn’t mean you should be consciously projecting yourself as something that you’re not in either place.
Comment by bad4shidduchim — June 30, 2009 @ 6:26 pm
General rule: If you’re “faking it” on dates, then it isn’t going to work out. Hopefully before the wedding.
Comment by Mark — June 30, 2009 @ 7:38 pm
Bad4 – if you’re carrying one of the little keychain Gerbers, it’s basically pliers, screw drivers, and gimicks. On the other hand, the “nail file” on a full size MP 600 series can, in fact, be used to file down sharp edges on hardware nails and other metal objects. I note this because, even on a date, somewhere on my belt is an MP 600. Laugh if you will, but its proven useful to have in the oddest situations.
Comment by Ben — June 30, 2009 @ 8:27 pm
Actually, Scarlett was one heck of a businesswoman. She was very shrewd and capable, successfully running a mill (rather than painting china or some other “feminine” type of occupation). Her southern belle act was an act from the time she was 17, like eating before a party so that she would only be able to take a dainty taste of ice cream, etc. So even in the 19th century, the “feminine” type was an artificial construct.
Comment by Ariella Brown — June 30, 2009 @ 10:44 pm
Eventually, in my experience, the guys don’t like it when girls are playing the fool. And agreeing with them all the time is a sure way to make a boring date.
More likely though, your intended will be fascinated with your fascination, or just consider it a lovable quirk.
Comment by NMF #7 — July 1, 2009 @ 3:50 am
OK, so dating and real life are different not just dating and work. On a date you must do your best (both guy and girl) to act politely, pleasantly, be agreeable (and that doesn’t mean not to disagree or argue a fine point) a girl should put herself together and look pretty even if she doesn’t always do that.
If a guy/girl is not willing to do that then I wouldn’t set her or him up at all as a matter of fact I would not be surprised if he/she had a difficult time getting married. Gasp!
Let’s say a date is to real home life as a job interview is to work. We wear a suit to job interviews even if we wouldn’t be caught dead in one anywhere else. You smile politely, thank the interviewer for his time, ask some polite questions and answer his. Are you faking? Are you lying? Are you not yourself?
Comment by patricia batton — July 1, 2009 @ 9:03 am
at work i tend to be on the quiet side, and whenever i mention this to a date, they never believe me. maybe this is becuase i “turn on the charm” for a date, but i dont think thats a problem. for a first second and maybe even third date, i think its perfectly alright to be your freindliest and most personable self. at work, i never feel that need. im shy and quiet, i keep my eyes downcast and do what i need to do (for the most part. i do have lapses, because by nature i do have more personality than that) truth is, that at work im uncomfortable because i hardly know the people i work with. so i cant be totally comfortable being myself. comments or jokes i may say at home or with my freinds, i would never say at work becuase i dont know the people well enough to guage their reaction, becuase im not spending enough time with to leatn that about them. on a date however, no matter how shy i can be with strangers (which noone who knows me believes about me till they see it….) i have to turn on the charm, because otherwise the date is pointless. if i sit there all quiet and uncomfortable, the date wont go anywhere. so i ignore my intimidation, and try to act as though im comfortable sitting across from a man ive never seen before… and usually it works, and eventually i dont need to try so hard to be comfortable.
however, im still going to be way more careful about what i say on dates, at least until i know the person better, and can guage how a comment will be interpreted on his part.
im not putting on a show in one place or the other, but i think the first few dates you go on, your natural inclination is (or at least should be) to be on your best behavior. and even the sweetest, kindest, most aidel girl is not always so perfect at home.
Comment by d — July 1, 2009 @ 9:17 am
i just reread that and i think i was unclear.
i DO NOT think that on a date you should be anything other than yourself in order to impress him (or her if your the guy) whereas at work, at least for me, it doesnt make a difference.
i DO think that on a date (at least at the beginning) you should present the best version of yourself. im not saying that if you are the cerebral super intellectual type that you should dumb yourself down, or ask that your date explains the basics of chemistry when you yourself can map out the different compounds in your shampoo just by reading the label. however, you DONT need to sound snobby or bratty or obnoxious about the fact that you know something. in my experience, most boys are impressed by brains, not intimidated. (the ones who seemed scared where generally the ones that lacked basic knowledge, the kind of stuff you learn in high school general studies…. and they still offered second dates…)
you dont need to go all super flirty, im a weak girl who cant tie my own shoe laces and i need a big strong man to do stuff like that for me becuase all i know how to do is look pretty and stroke his ego. unless of course, that is who you are.
but if your going to explain why you find varicose veins oh so fascinating, do it with a smile on your face and a genuine enthusiasm, rather than a grimace and an attitude that states quite plainly that you feel as though you are talking to a toddler.
but then again, i think thats something to do in all aspects of you life.
Comment by d — July 1, 2009 @ 9:30 am
Dressing appropriately, being polite, and generally being pleasant is not “faking”, it’s just the way we do things in civilized society, whether for a date, a job interview, or other social interaction (like work, going to shul, etc).
However, never being “yourself” during the entire course of dating, never actually revealing who you are on the inside, is an almost sure recipe for disaster. Of course, being too open on the first few dates is an almost sure way to end that budding relationship. I think there’s a fine line of what is appropriate, and how much more becomes appropriate as the dating progresses in its seriousness.
Mark [an expert in the theory of dating, a bumbling fool in the practice of it. B"H already married for enough years not to care anymore :-]
Comment by Mark — July 1, 2009 @ 10:39 am
“and one doesn’t kick off one’s shoes and run barefoot through the grass on a date ” – why not?!?
Comment by cms — July 1, 2009 @ 11:36 am
When I was dating I did the whole nine yards – makeup, hair, you name it. Of course I end up marrying the guy I met AT WORK who saw me every day with zero makeup. I actually did go all out with the makeup on the first few dates until he admitted he liked me better without it. If you are being fake, people can tell and find it unattractive. In retrospect, a pound of makeup is not what works for most guys. Think about it, if you need that much makeup one has to wonder what you are hiding under there. What kind of guy is super attracted to pancaked makeup? Do you want to be with that kind of guy forever? What about when you don’t have time to get all gussied up? Natural looking makeup, in which you are comfortable, is much better.
For most people their work self is more closed off and polite than their ‘real’ self. And in the beginning of dating, your dating self will be a bit more closed off as well. You should be polite on dates and try to present yourself well so long as you are not falsifying anything. But as the relationship progresses you have to start opening up. If you are not comfortable being yourself then this may not be the relationship for you.
Comment by Kosher Bride — July 1, 2009 @ 1:26 pm
d – maybe you should act at work like you do on a date, and then you wouldn’t feel like you don’t know anyone. It’s really a very similar dynamic – two strangers trying to find a common ground.
Comment by bad4 — July 1, 2009 @ 4:18 pm
Ariella — But Scarlett was considered scandalous because of that, and although men fancied her, their mothers would probably die before letting them marry her. She seemed to be an exception in their society, because at that time, women were not supposed to run businesses as she did, or be as successful at it.
Comment by inkstainedhands — July 1, 2009 @ 5:48 pm
You guys, I was kidding!
All the same, long give feminity. I devoted a whole post to reply to your comments, when I planned on writing about something totally different tonight. Hope you’re flattered!
Comment by Frum N' Flipping — July 1, 2009 @ 6:29 pm
You’re right inkstainedhands. But the preparations to appear dainty at the party are somewhat revealing about the artifice behind feminine appearances. Scarlett played the role of the feminine sourthern belle but was really very tough and capable. Men were interested enough to marry her. It appeared that only Ashley was immune to her charms.
Comment by Ariella Brown — July 2, 2009 @ 12:20 pm
Men were interested in her because she was something different, something unusual. She had a fiery spark in her that most other girls did not seem to have. She was somewhat of a rebel in their society, and while that was refreshing for some, it apparently did not convince Ashley to marry her. I don’t think he was “immune to her charms.” I mean, he liked her; he seemed to even be fascinated with her because she was so different from what he was used to. But he did not feel a personal connection to her, because she almost seemed as if she was from a different world. So although she was charming, he could not possibly marry her.
Comment by inkstainedhands — July 2, 2009 @ 5:20 pm
its called playing hard-to-get. and she was beautiful (at least in the movie)
but on the main point of being different- do you want a guy who acts on a date (and in marriage) the same way he acts in yeshiva amongst guys?
and totally agree with your point. it is fascinating to listen to a girl who is passionate about a certain idea, thought, or information. While i may not “get” wby varicose viens are of extreme interest to a person, if you actually ‘listen’ them you may actually see what is of interest.
Comment by harryer-than-them-all — July 3, 2009 @ 11:32 am