Quote of the week:
“It’s not like there’s anything profoundly wrong with us. Why aren’t we married yet?”
Okay, I confess. I said that. Long ago, and I forgot all about it until a friend said it made such an impression on her that she still laughs when she thinks about it.
See, that’s where I begin to doubt. If one innocent line can keep a not-profoundly-wrong friend in stitches for months, maybe there is something profoundly wrong with me, and I just don’t know it. After all, studies show that most people have no idea how wrong they are. Well, obviously I’m incompetent at getting married, but there must be some underlying reason that I don’t get because I think I’m so competent…
This logic is too circular for me. Is that where people get so dizzy that they run off to a counselor for help, and wind up finding their story written up with changed names on the Dating Page in the Jewish Press?
Bad4, have you ever heard about the four stages of being an expert at something? I can’t remember the source, but it went something like that:
1. You don’t know anything, and you know that
2. You know a little and think you know everything
3. You know a lot and think you know nothing
4. You know a lot and you know that
Most people are happily stuck at stage two, which is probably the reason for so much smug incompetence all around. Not that being aware of your incompetence is in itself the answer: I have a habit of happily reporting my shortcoming and incompetence to all and sundry, but I suspect they would rather I stopped being so wonderful at ’self monitoring’ and started doing something about it…
Comment by wellspring1986 — November 10, 2009 @ 10:10 am
It’s funny like that.
I’ve had guys tell me, “If I weren’t married, you’d be the first on my list!” Not very helpful.
Also, trust me, I’ve seen girls with plenty of issues and problems get married, and some extremely nice, smart, capable etc. girls remain single. I don’t know if there’s any reasoning behind it.
That doesn’t mean every smart good girl is single, and all the weirdos are married, it just means that generically speaking, you and i being normal, apparently doesn’t do THAT much for our Shidduch resumes.
Comment by SmartyPants — November 10, 2009 @ 10:21 am
Also, an important thing to keep in mind is that marriage doesn’t solve problems. People may think that once they get married then they’ll change and be happy and everything will be good, but it doesn’t work like that.
I still believe everything has the right time, that there’s nothing wrong with you if your single, you just haven’t met “the right one” yet.
But also, if you do find “the right one” you might not know right away, or even at all. There’s no magic that happens. It’s only after you get engaged or married that you start to “love” them.
Comment by Jewish Side — November 10, 2009 @ 10:32 am
I’m not like everyone else. Therefore the guy, which is hopefully on the lookout for me, is also not like everyone else.
And if I have to wait a little to get my ideal guy, then I’ll wait a little.
Comment by Princess Lea — November 10, 2009 @ 11:03 am
Jewish Side- Query- after engagement, you start to ‘love’ someone? I think that usually, love happens, and grows deeper after marriage. A wise mashgiach once told me that dating is getting to know someone, engagement is keeping the relationship on that same level, and marriage is deepning that relationship and allowing it to flourish.
Oh, and being smart/not smart has nothing to do with finding your mate. Albeit that it is harder for smart people to find their mate, it mostly has to do with the fact that most of the world is of average intelligence- hence, average- and it takes longer to ferret out those smart ones.
Comment by nmf #7 — November 10, 2009 @ 11:07 am
I told you – majority of guys don’t like girls who are cleverer than they are. Pretend being under guys level (until you marry him) and that could add up to your chances of being engaged in few months or faster.
Comment by Dude with Hat — November 10, 2009 @ 11:12 am
NMF#7: your right that love happens and grows deeper after marriage. But after the engagement I allowed myself to open up more, and now I’m learning so many things that I “love” about SN, but I guess that’s not the real “love” your referring to, because I also love things about his sisters.
See here’s something that has been troubling me, but I can’t blog about it cause then SN would read it… I’m trying to figure something out. My friend told me that her kallah teacher said that you should limit your interaction with your chosson during engagement, that you shouldn’t get too close, because only after marriage you have like a “security” that he’ll stay with you, that if you get too close beforehand then you may become ordinary to him and he might start to find faults. But then I’m thinking that when I get married I want to already feel close to my chosson, I want to start off the marriage with me loving him, that he should be my best friend. Because I was observing a cousins wedding, where I watched my cousin interact with her chosson and it felt like they were barely talking to each other, and it made it seem like she wasn’t into it. I want by my wedding that when I look at my chosson there will be that gleam in my eye that I’m excited to marry him. Am I allowed to feel that way? I’m confused!
B4S: sorry for going off topic!
Comment by jewishside — November 10, 2009 @ 11:15 am
Dude with Hat- Yeah, but it could also end up with a person, c’v, being divorced within a few months when she realizes she can’t stand being married to someone less intelligent than she is.
Comment by nmf #7 — November 10, 2009 @ 11:15 am
@Jewish Side- Yeah, you’re allowed to feel that way. Some do, and some don’t. Some have limited interaction with their fiancee (like I did) yet still have that gleam- and others spend tons of time and don’t. I don’t think it has to do with how much time you spend before marriage, but rather, with your own personal level of comfort and familiarity towards your fiancee.
Comment by nmf #7 — November 10, 2009 @ 11:18 am
@Jewish Side- And, I don’t like the kallah teacher’s approach- sorry to say. You will both find thigs you don’t like about the other, eventually. If someone’s fiancee is so flighty that after they find one thing that they don’t like about their intended during engagement, that suddenly, their fiancee becomes trivial to them- then I don’t think that marriage has a very good chance of succeeding. (I’m not referring to something majorly wrong, but something like: she doesn’t like falafel and he does. Or she squeezes from the middle of the tube.)
Comment by nmf #7 — November 10, 2009 @ 11:21 am
jewishside- I think the kallah teacher is making a very good point but not for the reason that she explained. I think it’s not healthy to grow closer to your chosson during engagement b/c you are ultimately limited in how close you can get before marriage and many people have difficulty remaining shomer negia at that point. You definitely want to keep up the relationship so that you’re not strangers at the wedding, but to let it flourish can be asking for trouble.
Comment by married gal — November 10, 2009 @ 11:29 am
I agree with Married gal as to the real reason behind what the kallah teacher said.
Comment by nmf #7 — November 10, 2009 @ 11:34 am
@nmf #7 – that’s right, but she’s clever enough to use her brain to figure if his really that stupid for her and she can always say no herself. My point was not to scare the guy, but give him a feeling that she fulfills him and his knowledge. Even if that’s just an illusion for him – she has to keep that illusion up, and guy has to keep up illusions for girl that make her happy. Could be that word “illusion” is not perfect here so don’t throw stones my way – it’s all lack of vocabulary.
Comment by Dude with Hat — November 10, 2009 @ 11:42 am
@jewishside – use this time to keep some distance from him, so when you get married you’d be running towards his face as crazy (because you couldn’t wait any moment more!). You won’t develop all that fancy love from before knowing him in and out, it will happen in a while after marriage anyway.
Comment by Dude with Hat — November 10, 2009 @ 11:46 am
Is a word missing from your quote?
Comment by Ariella Brown — November 10, 2009 @ 12:48 pm
My friend told me that her kallah teacher said that you should limit your interaction with your chosson during engagement, that you shouldn’t get too close, because only after marriage you have like a “security” that he’ll stay with you, that if you get too close beforehand then you may become ordinary to him and he might start to find faults. But then I’m thinking that when I get married I want to already feel close to my chosson, I want to start off the marriage with me loving him, that he should be my best friend.”
The kallah teacher probably read the works of Rabbi Miller, which advise as such. He says that the couple only become “reyim ahuvim” upon marriage. So once they are married, everything will be fine, but prior to that they cannot yet be reyim ahuvim, and so then we would invoke the idea of absence makes the heart go fonder and not bring them in close contact to avoid the possibility of disagreements. That’s the argument. In truth, I think, though, they do not want the couple getting too close in another sense, which is why they believe some distance is a good thing. Again, let me clarify — I am not saying to do this, but that is the perspective the kallah teacher is coming from.
Comment by Ariella Brown — November 10, 2009 @ 12:52 pm
If a couple comes to disagreements before the wedding, that is to be expected. So those disagreements won’t appear after marriage? Wouldn’t it be better to deal with the problem then, and not after marriage?
Boy, are we off topic.
Comment by Princess Lea — November 10, 2009 @ 1:19 pm
jewish side- i think that people tend to pick and choose which biblical figures they want to teach their lessons from. for instance yitzchak and rivka were close right away, in fact she literally ‘fell’ in love at first sight.
Yaakov it says that he loved rochel before marriage, in fact he kissed her before marriage.
but back to the post, there is an old saying “never take dating advice from single people” So while your blog is entertaining, and it gives people a place to see shidduchim in a humorous light, its value as dating advice, i cannot tell.
Oh, and can you start writing in the Jewish Press? that would be awesome!
Comment by harryer-than-them-all — November 10, 2009 @ 1:52 pm
First, I like what princess lea wrote in comment #4. That is very true. People that don’t fit a mold (i.e. typical yeshiva guy, typical YU guy, typical stern girl, typical brainwashed BY girl) have a much harder time finding their mate.
I heard a story 2nd hand of a shdchun that said, “it’s not hard matching YU guys to Stern girls. All you have to do is this (she interlocks her fingers of one hand with the fingers of her other hand) and if that doesn’t work, then you just do this (whereupon she unlocks her fingers, moves the fingers of one hand down one finger-width notch and then interlocks them again). but, when you have a guy or girl that is in YU or Stern but does not fit the “mold,” this (finger locking/just moving from boy to boy, girl to girl) doesn’t work.”
Further, many people who have had an easy time getting married are either unspectacular people getting married to unspectacular people (I’m not saying this is the case for every person that easily gets married), or have marriage problems and either live a life of misery or get divorced under the radar.
So, don’t be depressed when you see people get married easily- you don’t know what problems they have or what they are giving up/missing.
Last, I chalk it up once again to guys having no self-confidence when they don’t want to marry smarter girls. I am looking for an extremely intelligent and smart girl and would love it if she were smarter. Wouldn’t everyone want to have kids that are that much smarter?
Comment by lawschooldrunk — November 10, 2009 @ 2:26 pm
Thank you, lawschool, for bashing the ditz-lovers out there. For we’re here, we’re smart, so get used to it. I can say that the ditz thing gets old very fast. Older men who married hapless Sallies are smitten with my fast talking conversation, if I may say so myself.
So all you insecure bachelors out there — may sure you won’t need an intelligent conversation at some point in the future before you wed your airhead.
Comment by Princess Lea — November 10, 2009 @ 2:55 pm
“If a couple comes to disagreements before the wedding, that is to be expected. So those disagreements won’t appear after marriage? Wouldn’t it be better to deal with the problem then, and not after marriage?
Boy, are we off topic.”
Admittedly, it is off the topic of the post, but a response to the comment. Rabbi Miller assumes that becoming “reyim ahuvim” offers a measure of protection that will not lead to a breach in the relationship after marriage. But before marriage, it is not present, so disagreements could have greater consequences. I don’t quite buy it myself, but that is what they believe.
Comment by Ariella Brown — November 10, 2009 @ 3:03 pm
There’s no one reason why basically normal people can’t get married. If I knew why people had this problem I wouldn’t be single myself.
Comment by Leibel — November 10, 2009 @ 3:38 pm
Maybe once upon a time. But if engagements break up in this day and age, one doesn’t usually say, “Well, that’s what happens from being too close.”
This “reyim ahuvim” concept merely reinforces the erroneous belief that marriage solves everything. It doesn’t, and two people have to work on it.
Comment by Princess Lea — November 10, 2009 @ 3:38 pm
Thanks for all the responses to my question.
NMF#7: Exactly. It’s that I like when we get to know each other, so that if he finds out something trivial about me, it can cause us to bond, rather than separating us. Ex: I haven’t tasted a lot of foods, which he thinks is strange that I’m “afraid” to try new stuff. But rather it causing us to be different, he would help me try new things, and then I realize that I actually do like the stuff, and it becomes our inside thing, and it bonds us.
Married Gal: right, I am not referring to Shomer Negiah issues here, because when I say interacting, I don’t mean seeing each other, but rather just communicating.
Dude With a Hat: But I feel I have to get to know him more/ get closer in order to get to the point where I will be running towards him.
Ariella Brown: That does sound like what she was saying.
Harry-er: interesting
Princess Lea: I agree with you.
Comment by jewishside — November 10, 2009 @ 7:04 pm
I would never give shidduch advice! Well, not beyond the “be yourself” and “don’t let things be uncomfortable; it’s not worth it.” Obviously, I don’t know a thing about getting married.
Leibel – you’re kind of assuming that you’re normal there. Which is normal, of course, but not necessarily accurate.
PS: I’d like to disclaimer – this post wasn’t really finished yet. I didn’t realize it would post itself today. I’ve been studying, and the blog marches on whether I pay attention or not. So, apologies for the typos and rough edges. I’ll check out tomorrow’s to make sure it’s better.
Comment by bad4shidduchim — November 10, 2009 @ 8:21 pm
Whether or not we’re normal does not matter as much as whether or not the person we choose to marry THINKS we’re normal. Everyone’s got at least one person who thinks they’re normal – that is, their spouse.
Comment by chan — November 11, 2009 @ 12:04 am
I’m completely abnormal, and proud of it. Being normal is so boring.
I don’t understand why any guys would want to marry a ditz. A wife is not a trophy that sits on your shelf and collects dust; you will actually have to interact with her! I’d like to marry a girl who is brainier than me, and has more sense than I do as to the use of said brains. But I suppose if a wife is only needed to make babies and clean dishes and diapers, her ability to hold a conversation or write a coherent sentence is irrelevant. It’s only a matter of time before guys start marrying intelligent robots with enhanced cleaning and baby-making abilities.
Comment by eyekanspel — November 11, 2009 @ 3:12 am
It’s only a matter of time before guys start marrying intelligent robots with enhanced cleaning and baby-making abilities.
Impossible. You need a physical woman to incubate a baby properly. However, you don’t need a physical man to make one. And if a woman is going to be doing the housekeeping and also earning a living, why would she need a husband? If anything, it’s only a matter of time before intelligent single women decide to have children anyway.
Oh wait, they have already.
Comment by bad4shidduchim — November 11, 2009 @ 9:12 am
Stepford wife, anyone?
Comment by Princess Lea — November 11, 2009 @ 1:22 pm
#7 – either the kallah teacher is nuts, or your friend mis-understood. Oh, it’s true that it’s not a really good idea to spend too much time with your Chosson, but not because you will become to “used” to each other! Over the years, I have seen some cases of couples who spent too much time with each other who either nearly broke up, or did actually break up, but that was most emphatically not the problem. One case was a “Bridezilla” issue (the Kallah really went a bit off the deep end and scared her Chosson off; she would have gotten over it after the wedding.) In most of the cases, the problem was that the stress of engagement combined with the necessity of keeping the level distance appropriate to a non-married couple, while the temptations there are much higher than usual, just got to be too much, and things just took a nosedive.
The good news is that you really don’t have to spend a lot of time together during your engagement to have that “gleam in your eye”. You may not have much time to talk to your Chosson by the Chassuna – but you have, I”YH, the rest of your lives together.
Comment by Anonymous — November 11, 2009 @ 9:21 pm
If a woman is still needed to incubate the baby, it’s only a matter of time before my robot is invented. I’m nearly finished with it.
And don’t worry, I’ll be making one for women too. It brings home flowers and says only nice things. And it always smells nice. You didn’t think I’d only invent a robot for guys did you? That would be sexist, and would exacerbate the shidduch crisis. My robots will completely eliminate the problem (so long as you’ve got the $100,000 for the robot). I’m actually not sure how that helps, because only rich people will be able to afford to buy their bashert. I’m going to have to start a movement to solve this crisis.
Comment by eyekanspel — November 11, 2009 @ 10:10 pm