“You can’t say that on a date, it’s flirting!” that’s a paraphrase of a quote. The context was a female who said that she’d hate a Barnes and Noble date because she’d want to curl up with the books and be forced to talk to this guy instead. But she wouldn’t ask the guy to change the dating venue because then she’d have to explain why, and that would be flirting.
Now, I’m not the world’s foremost expert on flirting, what with having a sheltered youth and spending most of my adult life with people who don’t know how to flirt and don’t have anyone to flirt with. (Kind of like me, actually. There are spectacular similarities between nerds and religious people.)
But I always thought it was a drop more obvious than just being cute or clever or quick with the repartee in a way that demonstrates friendliness toward the other party. I mean, isn’t there something about flipping your hair and batting your eyelashes and looking coyly over your shoulder with a small smile playing about the lips and so on? And aren’t personal and insinuating comments involved?
If not, then I’ve been flirting for years with goodness knows how many people, most of them female. How utterly embarrassing. You see, this is where an unsheltered youth would come in handy. At least I’d know when I’m flirting.
But anyway, if flirting consists of being cute or clever or quick with the repartee in a friendly way, then aren’t you allowed to flirt on a shidduch date? I mean, according to Google, flirting is a sign that you’re interested in the person. It would be a heads-up that the shadchan is going to contact you with a “yes.” At the very least, flirting (if that’s all there is to flirting) is entertaining, which is more than you can say about the lounge you’re doing it in.
And hey, aren’t we dating? If you can’t flirt when you’re dating, when can you? After engagement? Isn’t half the point of flirting the fact that you haven’t yet got the person?
Now, I’m not recommending eyelash batting. Personally, I couldn’t manage that anyway. I read somewhere that women can bat their eyelashes something like 30 times a second (don’t quote me, I couldn’t google up the exact number), but I can’t. Okay, yes, I’ve tried. (Well if you heard that women can bat their eyelashes 30 times a second wouldn’t you try? C’mon – admit it – you’re trying right now.) But standard verbal fencing, on the other hand, I can do. So please tell me flirting is okay!
Flirting consists of staring out soulfully from under half-lowered lashes (batting those lashes is only going to get you a question of “You have something stuck in your eye?”), with your head tilted at a slight angle and your lips in a half smile, slightly parted, as you drawl in a low pitched voice “I’ve just never heard the parsha explained like that before! Please, tell me more!” At that point you lean forward a bit allowing your hair to swing forward and brush your cheeks and chin.
If telling a boy that you’d prefer not to go to B&N is considered flirting, then no wonder we have a shidduch crisis.
Comment by Prof K — November 11, 2009 @ 10:03 am
I believe prof K’s description is pretty accurate. I have always understood that the main component of flirting is NOT verbal. And I don’t mean necessary the eyelashes-batting, which is a tad too obvious. Intense eye contact is much more common. This was something I had to learn: I tend to establish eye contact when conversing intensely, even at work, and some guys can get really weird about that. ‘Hey, she must think I am really great to look at me like that’. Try to explain that you hardly see him – simply making sure he is focused on what you are saying. I’ve learned not to establish more than momentary eye contact either with single men or with certain, umm, ‘matinee idol wannabes’ types. I still do that with married guys who know me well enough to know I am excited by the topic, not by them.
So, I guess flirting is literally in the eye of the beholder…and can by no means be connected to B & N, from all things!
Comment by wellspring1986 — November 11, 2009 @ 10:32 am
HAHA!I actually did try batting my eyelashes while I was reading your last paragraph. I seriously don’t know why guys like that. I thought guys like looking into the girl’s eyes. How are they able to accomplish that if they can’t see them?! lolol
Comment by eyelashgirl — November 11, 2009 @ 10:44 am
flirting is mostly body language, stuff you say is black and white whether you are or are not flirting. prof k identified this already.
Comment by n — November 11, 2009 @ 11:19 am
I have no idea what constitutes as flirting. The joy of the imagined double entendre is that it can be derived from anything, leaving one in wide-eyed innocence and the other with smitten “She likes me! She really likes me!”
The popular girl in school did the eyelash bat (30x a second, it is quite a feat not to induce a seizure), but since it was Bais Yaakov it was kind of wasted.
Comment by Princess Lea — November 11, 2009 @ 11:29 am
I would assume that the person who wanted the date venue changed would ask so by flirting.
Example: “Oh, is there anywhere else we could go? Because I would get so distracted by new books out, and I would hate to miss any of your scintillating conversation. ”
In which case, the guy might give in. Otherwise, the guy might think she was crazy. One of the two.
Comment by nmf #7 — November 11, 2009 @ 11:43 am
Oh, the above scenario would involve plenty of eyelash batting and hair flipping at appropriate moments.
Comment by nmf #7 — November 11, 2009 @ 11:44 am
in my experience there are quite a few BY girls who do know how to flirt. on dates it can be kinda innocent, even fun. isn’t half the point of dating being attractive to the other person? so who cares whether its the makeup, hair, outfit, or the flirting/personality.
Comment by Harryer than them all — November 11, 2009 @ 12:02 pm
Because she is supposed to be a fine, classy girl, not the smoldering look/breathy voiced . . . what’s a nice euphemism that can be printed in mixed company?
Comment by Princess Lea — November 11, 2009 @ 12:41 pm
It is time for a psak on tznius flirting (you should pardon the expression). We also need shiurim (like how many eyelash bats per second are optmal). Others argue that it doesn’t matter since a real ben torah does not look at you directly. But the rejoinder is, we have to protect ourselves now that some yeshivah bochurim, rachmonah u’tzlon, read frum blogs.
However, hakol col yaacov v’hayadaim, yiday eisav (Jews rely on words). So the way to fullfill the mitzvah of shiduchim is through words, not positioning of limbs, chas v’chalilah touchingl
Some suggested appropriate lines (delivered in a tznius voice with no singing or even singsonging:
“I know I am only a girl, but could you share something about the parshah I could understand?”
“That is a nice sefer you are carrying. Is it hard to understand?”
“what do you think is the most important chumrah you got this year?”
“Which hashgachah do you think is the most reliable?”
“Tell me about your favorite chavrusah?”
Notice, the strategy is to emphasize your wish to swoon at his learning. While some might think this manipulative, it isn’t. It puts the boy in a frame of mind to focus on your inner qualities relevant to establishing a true Torah household.
Please writer of this blog (I can’t even utter the blog name) do not mock tznius.
Seriously, you have put me in a mind to write some satire on this. Thank you.
Comment by Yerachmiel Lopin — November 11, 2009 @ 12:57 pm
I once had a Beis Yaakov girl define flirting to me as ‘walking up to a boy and starting to talk to him.’ I grant that she was younger than dating age (as was I), but I thought this unnecessarily broad.
Comment by GilaB — November 11, 2009 @ 2:22 pm
My impression always was that flirting is very much a part of marriage. The Torah tells us that Yitzchak was “mitzachek” his wife, Rivka, and they are the only couple about whom we are told that they loved each other. So yeah, not just about the newness. Or, about constantly making things new.
Comment by staying afloat — November 11, 2009 @ 5:30 pm
Bad4 (A.K.A Frum Carrie Bradshaw),FYI, daring a guy to buy you a beer on date and calling his bluff is the most obvious type of flirting! Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Comment by Sheva Yipol — November 11, 2009 @ 5:54 pm
The reason why it would be flirting is because it would be said by a later date, which implies that you like him. Therefore, if you say that you don’t want to go with him because you’re scared that it’ll be a bad date, you’re obviously teasing him, whereupon, if he takes the bait, he will flirt/tease back. I believe that that sort of flirting would be classified as “coy”.
Comment by Raphi — November 11, 2009 @ 6:10 pm
Yeah, I got that – but I’m pretty sure coyness is kosher. At least it seems to be, according to internet people. Who might not be the world’s foremost experts on proper orthodox dating.
Comment by bad4shidduchim — November 11, 2009 @ 8:08 pm
Yerachmiel – I think your examples all run along a similar line – for the girl to “dumb herself down” when she is talking to the guy.
There’s nothing wrong with subtle, girlish flirting, as long as its tasteful and not obvious. In fact, a common mistake women make is treating a date like a business meeting.
Comment by Anon1 — November 11, 2009 @ 9:38 pm
“There are spectacular similarities between nerds and religious people” – I resemble that remark.
As I see it it would be more problematic for flirting not to occur on a normal date than for it occur, it does indicate that one isn’t treating the date like a business deal or interrogation.
Comment by Leibel — November 11, 2009 @ 10:34 pm
Leibel, I’ve always wondered what “I resemble that remark” means. It looks like a typo or a Freudian slip. Does the person mean that they actually resemble the remark – in this case you’re saying you’re a nerd or a religious person or both and you don’t know how to flirt?
Comment by bad4shidduchim — November 11, 2009 @ 10:53 pm
I’m a nerd who became religious.
Comment by Leibel — November 11, 2009 @ 11:41 pm
Dear Anon1,
If I believed the average yeshivah guy was looking for his peer in lomdus I would have suggested an opposite strategy of showing up with a sefer in her hand. But alas, excepting Rav Soleveitchik, who liked the idea of marrying a woman earning a PhD (back in the 30 in Europe when it was truly rare) I know of very few yeshivish guys looking for lomdus in their shiduchim. After all where would the logic be in expecting women to support them in beis medrish if women were their learning peers.
Comment by Yerachmiel Lopin (FrumFollies editor) — November 12, 2009 @ 4:37 am
Oh, so do you find that the two states (nerd/religious) are not very different from each other?
Comment by bad4shidduchim — November 12, 2009 @ 8:01 am
They’re similar in many respects.
Comment by Leibel — November 12, 2009 @ 12:33 pm
The best flirting is after the Chuppah. My wife and I have been flirting for 28-plus years now. (Sometimes it embarrasses the children.)
Comment by Izzy — November 13, 2009 @ 2:38 pm
Bad4, “I resemble that remark” is an example of what is known as a malapropism, or a substitution of a word for a similar sounding word, often with a comedic result. While malapropisms can be found in high brow literature, including Shakespeare, that particular one is generally credited to the Three Stooges. The meaning being something like, I think I am that thing you said, and I claim it for my own comedic purposes. The person speaking usually identifies with the characterization (religious, nerdy, in the case of the three stooges, riffraff), and she or he thinks its funny. The joke sort of has the same meaning as “I am not as think as you drunk I am.” Meaning, you are right I am drunk, but I am in on the joke.
Comment by Nonreligious Nerd — November 15, 2009 @ 1:55 pm
NN – thanks. It seemed malapropismish, but always seemed to be reeled off with such seriousness that I honestly thought I was out of the loop on the usage of an English word. The Three Stooges. A gaping hole in my life.
Comment by bad4shidduchim — November 16, 2009 @ 9:08 am
Of course, the missing aspect of the “I resemble” comment is that it comes from the indignant “I resent that remark!” In jest, the speaker states boldly “I resemble that remark!” thus turning the conversation weight around.
Anyway, I suppose it’s a fine line, but flirting should probably be allowed up to a point as it indicates interest, yet don’t overdo it in such a way indicating you’d like to book a motel room together soon. It is always nice, reassuring, emboldening, even – to see your date give you a hint (be it a smile, a shrug, a glance, or a spoken comment) that she/he is actually interested in you.
Comment by Yosef — November 16, 2009 @ 6:57 pm
Flirting is not just showing interest! I show interest in my co-workers and my mother. The way you go from being strangers to feeling comfortable and safe sharing your life with someone is via flirting. Telling your date she is pretty or you like her dress is not just showing interest. It’s indicating physical attraction which for most men is a pre-requisite to falling in love. You can’t have a successful marriage without it, and it needs to start while you’re dating.
Comment by True BT — November 16, 2009 @ 10:49 pm
True BT, I meant Showing Interest, not just showing interest. Obviously your “interest” in your mother and co-workers is different from your Interest in your date.
I hope, anyway.
And complimenting appearance is only the beginning.
Comment by Yosef — November 17, 2009 @ 5:21 pm