Re the Wall-E post, where the robot recommended using your date’s first name a lot… Some people pointed out that that’s not “done” in orthodox circles.
Newsflash! You can’t take dating advice verbatim from a 28th-century robot! He’s not a rabbi. Or even Jewish. He’s just telling you what worked for him.
Studies show that if you use someone’s name when you address them, it endears you to them. Though generally we address people in this manner:”Hey, let’s go get ice cream,” actually, you will kindle even friendlier feelings toward yourself by saying: “Bad4, let’s go out for ice cream, my treat.”
Now, it is generally considered a faux pas to use your date’s name on a date. This is because, I guess, you’re not supposed to be on first name basis yet. I would think that by the fifth date or so (in the S7D sequence) this would no longer apply, and you ought to be able to act like you actually know each other (which one hopes you do). However, extra care must be taken when dealing with callow bais yaakov maidels, as their tolerance level for such borderline flirtation is particularly low.
Which brings us along to flirtation and the personal compliment. I know this one made the rounds of the blogosphere a while back. One particular comment caught my attention. It was to the tune that it’s perfectly normal for a man to compliment a woman on her appearance in the outside world; it’s only these insulated religious girls who think it’s not.
Now, as far as I can tell, that is just not so. After two and a half years working in non-Jewish institutions, I can attest that I have only received personal compliments from one man. And once, shortly after, he complimented his male friend: “You smell nice today.” His friend promptly informed him that this was socially inappropriate, and he could keep his observations to himself in the future. Since then he’s kept his compliments to himself.
(Yes, hair gel has a pleasant scent to it and this is intentional. We’ve come a long way from whale blubber in the hair, for good reason. But somehow, the idea of being sniffed is a tad disconcerting. Quite frankly, if the sniffer can smell something distinct, than either the sniffer is too close or the sniffee is too smelly.)
Girls, on the other hand, can’t seem to stop complimenting each other. “You look nice today.” “You look good in that color.” “Those earrings bring out your eyes.” “Nice skirt!” And so on. But they never compliment the guys beyond “What’s the occasion?” when one tucks in his shirt or “Who are you?” when a slovenly fellow shaves and shows up in a suit.
Thus I conclude that, at least among the multi-cultural nerds of the world, cross-gender complimenting is a no-no. And since nerds have many of the same reservations, hangups, and habits as religious folk, I extrapolate that it is not wise to shoot off the compliments to those you don’t know well in the religious world.
Now, before anyone starts screaming: obviously, this is the kind of thing you have to play by ear. Your date’s background, age, and tolerance level should all be taken into account. (If she’s ignored a lot of other dumb things you’ve said, chances are she’ll let an unwelcome compliment slide.)
Think about it this way: of course a girl wants to hear that she looks nice. She put time and thought into her presentation and would like to know that it made some kind of impression. However, she’s also afraid of being goggled at by one of those shallow, animalistic male creatures. You know who you are.
So – just a suggestion here: maybe closing her front door, giving her the elevator eyes, and expressing a liking for what you see isn’t the cleverest approach.
Here’s another way: don’t start by commenting on her appearance. Compliment her on something she does – being a caring teacher, an artistic designer, a brave world traveler, a learned scholar, a kind Samaritan, a thoughtful dater…
Whatever. Just demonstrate that you notice something about her besides her looks. Ta da! You are no longer a slavering Neanderthal dressed up in a suit for the evening. You see beyond the surface! You recognize her as a person! You have depth! You may cautiously proceed with the “you look nice” line.
Does this all seem very unreasonable to you? Maybe it is. But if you want to marry a woman you might as well get used to dealing with them.
“Now, it is generally considered a faux pas to use your date’s name on a date. This is because, I guess, you’re not supposed to be on first name basis yet.” I love it! It’s so very Jane Austen! But I just can’t picture a modern day young woman turning an icy stare on the man who dared call her Chanie, while telling him, “I have not given you leave to call me by my first name.” (Chanie cannot very well call it a Christian name can she?) This really is a matter of style. I notice that some people I call for business make a point of calling me by my first name because they’ve been instructed to do so. It is supposed to build rapport. BTW Dave Barry does a great send-up of this in a piece in which he satirizes the salesman who inserts a “Dave” into nearly every sentence. My own husband, though, never calls me by name. I don’t think this is a chumra but just his style of conversation.
Sorry, but I hold by exactly the opposite re calling a date by her/his first name. Given the exchangibility factor in shidduchim, you had better make sure that your date actually knows who you are–using your first name would establish this right from the start. Yes, I once redt a shidduch in which the boy reported back that “Chani” was a nice girl but not for him. Only problem was that I set him up with a “Rochel.” They never got around to name calling–just what is it that they were discussing for 3 hours?!
Unlike business practices (and these business practices vary by location, culture and type of business), dating is a social/friendly interaction situation and first names are not only appropriate but required. Presumably you are dating with marriage as an outcome. You think that using first names is too informal? Oh boy are you in for some surprises down the road then.
I went out with a guy and still, to this day, I do not know what his first name is. Since the date was of apocalyptic proportions, I think it’s best.
I am not comfortable with compliments. I feel as though the other person wants something . . . (“Nice earrings. Can you babysit tonight?”) or I have to downplay it to preserver anther’s ego (“These earrings? They are actually causing blood poisoning as we speak”).
So if a guy would compliment me on my appearance, I’d blush and squirm in my chair and pray for a cosmic distraction, like a police car chase, to change the subject.
But if a guy complimented me on something I did beyond excellent makeup application, I’d smile dreamily and gaze lovingly into his eyes (while he squirmed uncomfortably). He, at least verbally, appreciates other qualities besides looks. He’s perfectly entitled to go for looks. Just keep his mouth shut about it.
I totally agree! And I also do think that independent of what number date you are on compliments are ok once you have actually formed a relationship
“Newsflash! You can’t take dating advice verbatim from a 28th-century robot! He’s not a rabbi. Or even Jewish. He’s just telling you what worked for him.
Studies show that if you use someone’s name when you address them, it endears you to them. Though generally we address people in this manner:”Hey, let’s go get ice cream,” actually, you will kindle even friendlier feelings toward yourself by saying: “Bad4, let’s go out for ice cream, my treat.”
1 – Robots aren’t male, or female even.
2 – You’re *real* name is bad4shidduchiim?
Although I do see the point of not complimenting a girl on her appearance until there’s a solid relationship going on. As per not using your dates first name, I’d say that there’s no hard and fast rule, if the date’s going well what’s the problem with using first names, if it’s one of those dates where 5 minutes into it you want to run home it is a bad idea to use first names.
This is highly potent shtuss. You’re dating – if that’s not a time to get familiar then when is a good time?
Very interesting post. I guess I would have been taken aback, had any one of my dates called me by my name…just because it’s not ‘done’. But, I don’t think I would have minded, or started running to the shadchan “He called me by my NAME- I want to break it off!”.
See and I have always heard the go for broke theory of Ortho-dating. Then one of my Rabbanim had a daughter who married her husband ten days after they first met… Yes she was B”Y… Story goes that she told her father, a respected Rav(though not a Rosh Yeshiva or anything) that she didn’t want all of the fuss. That she wanted him to find her someone serious about getting married. Apparently he did, as they went on two dates in two days and married, after the requisite period…
While I agree that guys don’t generally compliment each other, we definitely call each other by our names. Nicknames are also huge – most of my close friends call me by a nickname, and coining a nickname for someone is the best way to win someone’s eternal friendship. (I suspect with girls the opposite is the case.) Though sometimes I may be lax at calling people by their name, I think it is a hugely important thing and is, plain and simple, a foundation of getting to know the person.
As for compliments, I’m ambivalent. While I would probably compliment a friend on a nice tie or haircut or something, I would find it strange to say that to someone that I don’t already have a relationship with. I believe unequivocally that a marriage has to include many, many compliments (specifically because to girls, they mean so much), but I would find it strange saying to someone I don’t really know well. I don’t know how many dates it would take for me to get to that point (though I suspect it won’t be so many) – hopefully I’ll find out soon enough.
I agree with ‘bad 4”- I am not surprised at the study’s outcome because it sounds very much like ”Mantra” /Cognitive Behavioral psychology in which a client repeats positive statements to oneself to ”feel friendlier feelings toward yourself.” Why else would every good Mom call her son a Tzadikel?!
Objectively, I’d say, “What’s wrong with a compliment? It’s flattering.” But from personal experience, I’ve been complimented by guys I did not know for more than an hour (sometimes less) and those compliments made me squirm and feel a little uncomfortable. Granted, I also didn’t really like those guys. Still, as much as I’d like to think it’s stupid to have rules about that stuff, I also can’t pretend that I haven’t felt uncomfortable with being complimented by guys I don’t really know. Maybe it would be different if I actually liked those guys, but…I feel like unless I’m really comfortable with them, I’d still feel awkward about it.
I never heard bout this no-name thing. Wtvr. The compliment thing though….!!!! My sister went crazy to wear a totaly different outfit each time (out of character for her!) all the way down to the shoes. Being that she had zero time to do shopping, she borrowed shoes one night… he right away spotted the shoes and told her “you look exactly like my mother in those!” (OOPS! lol he was NOT thinking)Belive it or not my sister was blown away!
BH theyre happily married………….
but knowing my BIL i cannot blv he slipped and said such a thing, so not him! and who wants to be compared to their dates mother… even if a boy sees a girl thru his mothers eyes? But if G-d Wants, He Wants.
ps. the owner of the shoes graciously offered my sister to keep them for all eternity.
The compliments question is probably something of a cultural issue. In my workplace, where the male workers are all frum, (some Chassidic, some litvak) , the guys have no problem complimenting each others. Some can even sniff appreciatively each other’s perfume and pay a ‘you smell good’ compliment. But they do know better than to try it on non-Israelis…and they compliment the girls too. Not for looks, of course, but everything else is fair game. (Cooking, organizational skill, intelligence, interesting conversation, sense of humor…) And my dates have not been too reticent either. I have never gone on a third date with anybody, and *still* I almost always get compliments. Not the ‘you are beautiful’ kind: this, indeed, I would only like to hear as a conclusion to a list of more meaningful forms of flattery
Whenever our commander-in-chief is introduced it is usually with “Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the the United States” without his name. I’ve heard that the custom developed after a bandleader mangled Herbert Hoover’s name. Maybe daters are just afraid of a similar faux pas?
I once read somewhere (possibly on this blog?) that whenever a woman starts calling a man by his first name, she has her eyes on his last.
to #15- That is really funny!
Thank you all who have offered the female perspective. I have much to ponder and learn from these insights. Keep the comments coming.
::sigh::
it’s perfectly normal for a man to compliment a woman on her appearance in the outside world…on a date!
“I have much to ponder and learn from these insights. Keep the comments coming.” – You’re taking notes aren’t you?
You know it!
mental notes. Who is smart? The person who learns from all…
#15/chan – I read that notion as a joke-ish comment in “Art of the Date.” I’m glad the position I heard from my rabbeim (which I mentioned in a previous thread, and is the topic of this one) regarding compliments about the person (and not their exterior) seems to be the properly sensible thing to do. I definitely see the point about the first name thing – but I think it refers to a specific context. I wouldn’t use her first name (during a few first dates) on a regular/casual conversational basis like I would my male friends, but I wouldn’t refrain from using it at all as some seem to think appropriate – AotD also suggests this as a “rule” to be broken. I did this on a recent first date when I had to get her attention from a distance when we got accidentally separated in the typical crowded NYC streets (this was also near the end of the date, so at least we were somewhat familiar with each other).
Compliments from guy to girl that are based in physicality definitely call attention to the fact regarding where his mind (and eyes) have been. Having never been female before, I can only imagine that it can be a very uncomfortable realization. It is an undeniable fact that very often guys view girls on a simplistic, physical, “piece of meat” fashion. It certainly doesn’t help to parade that baser perspective, especially to one’s date.
You know it! – Pirkei Avos also says something about not making yourself like a lawyer. Of course I’ve got a lawyer in training for a friend so who am I to point that out? Humor aside taking notes is a good idea.
How about compliment on the girl’s tznius? I’m kidding. Having had older brothers, I recall their friends (not them, of course) referring to girls in FBA, which stands for full body armor, meaning covered.
G:
“it’s perfectly normal for a man to compliment a woman on her appearance in the outside world…on a date!”
It’s also perfectly normal for a lot of other stuff to happen on dates in “the outside world”, but that shouldn’t mean much to us. [Although, for this particular issue, I'd vote yes for first names, and appearance-related compliments probably only after a while. Although maybe if I were actually dating yet I'd change my tune, I dunno.]
Then there are always the “bullet-proof stockings.”
G? Still there? I thought you were so happily married you retired from grousing about the blogosphere.
bad4, thanks for that! (no need to give it more attention
Right! The Art of the Date! Thanks! It’s a good thing I’m anonymous on this blog (besides for my sister) because I wouldn’t admit to anyone that I actually read that book.
No, it is not appropriate to compliment “on the outside world” until you’ve at least done some negiah.
No one said you have to take it seriously – what’s wrong with having read it – even if just to laugh at its contents?
What G said.
Also, I’ve seen people compliment one another in both frum and secular cirlces, though always respectfully.
On the few occasions I have received a compliment from a man (usually a secular one) on my appearance, I felt distinctly uncomfortable. Maybe there is a difference here between married and unmarried women. I think it is inappropriate for a man (other than the woman’s husband)to compliment a married woman on her appearance, but I think a tasteful compliment on a 3rd or 4th shidduch date might be OK
Holy Moly! I will say this once. In all caps. Which I never do. COMPLIMENTING IS OK! IN FACT, IT’S GREAT! AND SO IS USING THE $%&*# NAME OF THE $%&*# PERSON YOU ARE WITH! There. I feel better.
Obviously, one should not be a sleaze about complimenting appearance, and indicate that one is ogling the body beneath the layers. But pick something out – the sweater, the hair, the perfume – and say, in a low-key fashion, that it’s nice/you like it. (This is for guys.) Girls can compliment back, as there actually are guys who understand that a date is worthy or dressing up for. Not necessarily a suit (I mean, is this a formal thing?) but a clean fashionable shirt, maybe a sweater, etc. The guy will appreciate it. If it’s difficult to compliment his physical appearance, then compliment his car or sense of humor. Guys, of course do not limit yourself to appearance also.
And for ppl who cannot accept praise, well, there are books on self-esteen written for you. You are not alone. It’s been noticed that we in modern society have trouble accepting praise. If the compliment is low-key and seems sincere, just smile and say thank-you. If you can return it, so much the better. Don’t go crazy with trying to invent why it’s nothing, or actually a negative (although blood poisining from earrings is quite original…)
I’m in stitches over the first name thing. I mean, this is why we have a shidduch crisis. People (young eligible Jewish daters) cannot talk like normal people. Because things are “Not Done.” MODERATION, PEOPLE! The same way you would not use your close friend’s name in every (or even most) sentences in a conversation, you do not need to use your date’s name. But every so often, if it feels appropriate, why not?
Chan, don’t you think it strange that you have to hide the fact you read that book? Its kinda like people having to hide the fact they studied before their exam. Why is it shameful to utilize a learning resource to get ahead in life?
What is this world coming to??
On a separate, more on topic, note, how often do you use a person’s first name anyway? In a typical conversation, (with anybody) is there really that much name-slinging going on? Its usually only used to a) get their attention > Moshe! (moshe picks up his head from his book) b) emphasize a certain point by “refocusing” their attention to it or -> “Moshe, you can’t just expect…” c) Hi/ Hey “Moshe.”
Maybe I’m just some kind of inhuman robot, but really, do other people use first names in ways I don’t?
LOL
My husband didn’t know my first name until the third date. Forgot to ask.
Er, we are all talking about the personal, appearance-related compliment, right? I probably should have specified that.
When the average non-Jewish girl goes on an official date she’s dressed to kill (from what I’ve seen), so hearing that she looks hot is probably more in order. The average Jewish maidel is trying to look pretty, but doesn’t want that to be the first thing the guy notices about her. So if he’s going to make it obvious that he notices something, he probably shouldn’t start with looks.
That’s what I said.
And I totally agreed with you, but figured iteration wouldn’t hurt.
I don’t consider the Art of the Date a learning resource – I read it for a good laugh.
hmmm… so then why in the world is it shameful to read comedy??
you will kindle even friendlier feelings toward yourself by saying: “Bad4, let’s go out for ice cream, my treat.”
Is it the “Bad4″ that kindles the friendly feelings or the “my treat”?
Let’s discuss it over the ice cream you buy me.
I feel like if you use a person’s name when you’re one-on-one it’s usually not a good sign. “You know, ____…” or “____, just…” etc.
In shidduch dating, one needs to be able to call his/her date by first name. I would suggest avoiding personal compliments on a first date with regards to appearance, on a second or third date, the guy could say “you look nice!” or some variation.
lol. But don’t you only eat chalav Yisrael?
Jedman67 – DON’T say “You look nice” to a BY girl – a real tzanua girl (like me) would think you are gross. Any girl with half a brain should realize that if a guy keeps dating her, he thinks she looks nice. Why mention it,just to create some tension? How about, “That’s a pretty necklace” or “You tell such funny stories!” And speaking of which, I’m not hung-up, but guys, figure out a way to look at a girl without leering – I know I am beautiful, but I still don’t want to feel like a guy is staring/focusing on my body.
After reading all these comments, I think there’s one thing I’d really like to say.
I think that rules over this stuff is a little silly – both TO give compliments and to NOT give compliments.
I understand what everyone is saying (especially the guys) about how it’s normal to give compliments on a date. The girl got all dressed up ‘specially for it and the guy wants to compliment her. And, theoretically, this should thrill the girl! Shouldn’t it?
And, as a girl who has gotten complimented (I like your skirt, etc.), I also understand that it’s uncomfortable to feel so…looked at, I guess. I know that makes no sense – for all the guys, I’m sorry if you just don’t understand what I’m saying. It actually does not make any logical sense – but do feelings really ever? Girls get dressed up because they want to look pretty and attractive. Yet, some girls will feel uncomfortable or awkward or shy about a guy actually voicing the fact that he noticed – at least until she knows him better and is comfortable with him. Why is this? I don’t know. This isn’t true for all girls – some girls might love compliments from guys on a first shidduch date (I’m only talking about shidduch dates at the moment. Dates where you never met the guy before). Still, I know from my own experience – and I’m not the only one to voice this in the comment thread here – that it can be uncomfortable. So as much as guys might think it’s ridiculous for a girl to feel uncomfortable about that, that doesn’t change the fact that some girls might still feel that way. They don’t feel that way on purpose, or because they ought to, or because some tznius rule tells them to. They feel that way because they just do. And I think that ought to be respected.
Of course, there’s no way for a guy to know if a girl will or will not feel uncomfortable with a compliment, so I am not at all saying the compliments should stop. Just that it’s not totally ridiculous or unheard of for a girl to feel uncomfortable with it. I bet that by a third or fourth date, or even second, I’d find it much less awkward to be complimented. It’s just that initial “I don’t know you, you have no idea who I am but you are forming opinions about my skirt or hair or shirt or etc” that makes me kinda squirm a little.
I’m still in high school, and not dating or anything like that, but I always get grossed out when guys stare at me. It’s kinda funny. I want to look good, and I want other ppl. to think I look good- but when I can tell a guy thinks I’m OMG, I cringe. I’m not interested in being the object of some stupid guy’s desire.
onlyme, don’t you think it a little unfair that on the one hand girls think its ok to dress up provocatively but on the other hand guys that “feed” on the girls provocation are creeps? Why the double standard? A girl that dresses that way deserves to be treated that way.
Sadly, its all relative – if you walk through maya shearim, you’ll be considered a _____ but if you walk into a bar, a prude. Its a lose lose situation unless you wear sackcloth…
I think in general, if you dress to get attention, don’t be surprised when you get it. If you feel that you’re getting attention beyond what your dress calls for, feel free to call him a creep.
Some girls could wear a sack and still get male attention.
The point being, AGAIN, that you are entitled to appreciate a girl’s looks. You may think “WOWZA!” But only in your head. ‘Cause big boys know what DISCIPLINE is. And are you a big boy? I should hope so.
I agree with Princess Lea on this one. Guys should display more tact in this area.
Thankfully in my dating career I did not have guys complimenting me immediately. However, since I attend a ”mixed” college -I’ve had to deal with this issue in school. Usually, I try my best to dress down without looking like a shlump! This past week, I really dressed up because I needed to make a professional presentation. I even got my hair cut for the occasion, and I blew my hair….etc. I did not even put on much makeup ( think only Foundation) , and yet EVERYONE SEEMED TO NOTICE! The compliments kept rolling in, and that was OK until the guy in my class made mention of it. I said a quick thanks, and tried to move on to anther topic like: ” Thanks everybody, but, I can make another presentation about my hair another time!” They all got the hint EXCEPT that guy in my class. Although, I know him for a year and a half already… I am single and so is he except he is a total goy who happens to be in my college program. The program I attend is technically 3 years,so, you get to know your 20 or so classmates really well. This guy actually asked me later in the day, if my hair was done for HANUKAH!
I was reminded about another incident regarding complimenting and the male -female clash. In my own home, my parents had a guest over pretty often.
One time, he complimented me on my hair, and, although I was not shidduch age yet (think 16) I was very embarrassed. I did not like being scrutinized. And, the guy was a divorcee who could have been my grandfather. so, any opinions on this?
redtred- maybe you were simply feeling overly self-conscious
About your parents friend complimenting your hair, he doesnt mean anything creepy by it, he probably sees you in a daughter-ly way, my dad’s friend always says im “beautiful” (in front of every1) theres nothing creepy about it believe me
Rachel – “You look nice” is about the tamest excuse of a compliment i’ve ever heard, even if the guy keeps on dating her, saying to her compliments about her looks makes her feel beautiful and special. Not evry girl realizes shes beautiful.
“Nice necklace” on the other hand indicates that the guy is staring at her chest.
you wish…
I groused not, simply pointed out a problem with the facts being used – never a popular move around here, i know, but some habits are hard to break.
I once went out with a guy who insisted on using my name on the first date – because if he waited until a later date, it might be considered like kiddushin to start using my name. I didn’t quite get it.
As naive as this sounds, I was actually quite disturbed when I realized the guy was actually looking. Of course I knew he could see, but until i got compliments, I didn’t realize he was REALLY ACTUALLY looking at what I was wearing and how I looked. It was really terribly uncomfortable. And I told him so but he didn’t seem to get it. And when he started using my name I was also kind of uncomfortable. And “honey, sweetie, darling” made me really nauseous.
Not to guys out there: if the girl seems uncomfortable- she really might be and maybe you should tone it down!
Yes, compliments are nice, but really. Girls analyze what you say and if there are too many physical/too personal comments, she might get creeped out.
Of course you don’t do it on purpose, but try to not to be a creep, just for our sakes.
Also, some people really don’t go for the “I love you” thing. The first thought that crossed my mind (after the intial squirm) was, “that’s dumb.”
So be careful, please.