Some people took issue with my Da’as Torah post, because it seemed to suggest that men are prone to handing their minds over to their rabbeim for safekeeping. This is hardly my position on the matter. As a woman, I tend to hear bad-date stories from women, hence most of my posts are from the female perspective “OMG can you believe this guy?” However, having attended a bais yaakov, I know perfectly well how far off the deep end women can dive.
One gentleman learned this himself on a date with a nice aidel girl. Conversation flowed until they had a hashkafic disagreement on a matter of ba’al tashchis. Suddenly, she withdrew and wouldn’t answer him with more than a grunt. After some monologuing at her, he gave up and dropped her off at home. He wasn’t sure what went wrong, but he had a feeling that she hadn’t been rendered speechless by awe and admiration.
“I think it’s a no,” he told the shadchan. “She went mute at 7:49pm.”
The shadchan did the post-mortem and came back with the results:
“While she was dating you, and there was a potential for marriage, there was toeles to your conversation. But once she decided that she didn’t want to marry you, she had no heter to speak to men, so she stopped.”
I have to say, I’m impressed by the strength of conviction of this young lady, and I just hope she doesn’t work in social services or any sector where pleasant but unnecessary conversation is part of the job. Either way, she’s now happily married to a man she can talk to as much as she pleases.
Truth is stranger than fiction.
How about teaching a bit of chochma / wisdom? In Mishlei, Shlomo Hamelech tells us that wisdom is knowing what trait to use when.
Isn’t there a to’eles in treating another person with a bit of respect? To say some considerate version of “Thanks, but no thanks” so he’s not left wondering, confused and maybe insulted like that?
Alas, it’s hard to teach wisdom. You need to see it modeled. And we’re far short on models.
Best4
Someone once asked r yaakov kamenetzsky that question and his response was “you have to be a mentch”
Tachlis would be the assumption that the guy or girl who was muted out has friends who may talk about how weird they were
I want to hug Best4′s comment. Does that sound weird?
I second Ezzie’s comment.
I also think that since girls are notorious over-analyzers, I find that they can’t (or won’t) form their own opinions until they talk it over with friends. But then, they talk it over with married friends because single friends don’t have the same perspective as marrieds. And then they talk it over with a teacher from seminary, because newly-marrieds have different perspectives than longer-marrieds. Yet, throughout all of this, the girl who is actually dating does not have the confidence in herself to say either yes or no, so she relies on lots of different opinions and doesn’t make a decision — or makes a stupid one based on what one person said that one time.
Also, I feel like dating decisions seem to weigh way more heavily on girl’s heads than boys. Like, if a boy says no (or gets a no), he’ll always have another resume thrust at him and he can take as long as he likes. But if a girl says no, she might end up a spinster, which is seen as possibly the worst fate a frum girl can suffer.
I’m not saying any of this justifies bad middos, but I do think lack of thinking (or misguided thinking) is prevalent amongst both of the genders, just for different reasons.
@Ezzie –
Agree with Mrs. Stupid Inventor, as well, for young girls. Some cannot make their own decisions at all and they think they will end up an old maid if they don’t get married within a year of starting to date.
Please tell me this is a true story. It will keep me smiling for a week if it is…
That story is insane, but doesn’t surprise me. It’s certainly one of those stories worth adding to the compendium of crazy dating tales, like the girl who takes the car keys at the red light to “test” the guy.
this story is definitely classic! Reminds me- I once went out with a guy who shares an office with 3 girls who won’t talk to him, so that when the phone rings, if the line is for him they’ll send him an email to let him know
I think i have heard this story, though i cannot imagine that it would be supported by Daas Torah.
or at least i hope not- i know my Rav would not hold by it.
Geek, was this guy serious or was he having you on?
@Mrs. Stupid Inventor
I used to think that just in general, girls over-analyze more than guys. But in my “dating experience” it’s always been the guys who can’t get back to the person who set it up. I’ll get home, think if I had a good/reasonable/bad time and say yes or no usually by the end of the night or the morning after. Then I’ll be waiting forever for the guy to get back to the shadcan.
So either the guys are just lazy or forgetful or over-analyze just as much as we do.
@ observer- I’m not sure. He might have been exaggerating a little but then again, maybe not. He did say one of them was planning on quitting her job because he had joined the staff and she felt it was inappropriate to be working in the same setting as a guy.
Interestingly, I argued his point and said he should respect someone who wants to maintain certain standards, even if they seem a little extreme. regardless of whether the standards are 100% logical/practical and based on halacha or something extra. The basis of my argument was that had it been the other way around, and the girls were being overly friendly with him, he probably would not have minded and just thought they were cool and fun. I think many people have a double standard… I may be wrong though
@B&N – Oh, I one hundred percent agree, I was just commenting on girls since this was a crazy girl story as opposed to a crazy guy.
I find though that guys wont overanalyze as much as just put it off because they don’t want to deal with it. I’m sure some are getting advice from their rebbeim, but I feel like many are also just not proactive because as I mentioned, the stakes aren’t as high to them.
Either way, there are many silly reasons why people are silly on dates.
The biggest irony, of course, is that one she does get married she’ll find herself talking to far more single and married men than she ever talked to while single herself. Unless, I guess, if she is the type to hide in the kitchen or eat at a seperate shabbos table, but that doesn’t even happen in most yeshivish crowds.
I personally would not ask my rebbe whether to marry a certain girl. To ask whether to go into the working field-that I would. Its not that I don’t respect da’as torah-just that I’m the one who has to make that decision, I’m the one that’s going to have to live with it, not him. I don’t understand those people who do ask their rebbe in this area.
“B&N….Again
But in my “dating experience” it’s always been the guys who can’t get back to the person who set it up. I’ll get home, think if I had a good/reasonable/bad time and say yes or no usually by the end of the night or the morning after. Then I’ll be waiting forever for the guy to get back to the shadcan.
So either the guys are just lazy or forgetful or over-analyze just as much as we do.”
I think I can shed some light from my perspective…. If asked right away some guys might feel pressured. If they say no- then they have to have a good enough reason, If they say yes- not necessarily do they really want to go out- Its just that they haven’t had time to think about it, and shaddchunim call you almost right after the date asking you why you didn’t get back to them right away…..etc (but again- that’s just my perspective).
Lol, that’s a great story! Wish that had happened to me!
Remember how girls are too kind to express when they want something (i.e., the bathroom)? So here’s a way to get the guy to take you home without asking! Just shut your mouth until he gets the hint!
Some guys just don’t get the hint even if you say it explicitly. I was once on an excruciatingly painful summer friday afternoon date, and once I’d completely had enough, I suggested we cut it a little short, since we both had to get ready for shabbos, and he just said, “Oh don’t worry, the shadchan said you were making late shabbos”!!