You Will Marry Me?

I was yapping it up with a friend bright and early one morning when she claimed that she’d marry the first guy who was willing to marry her.

I’m sure it was meant to sound shocking, and all that, but when you think about it, not really. I mean, at this point, I’d probably do that too. No guy is going to propose before the fourth date, and hopefully by that point I’ll have weeded out the Definitely Nots and be left with the Eh, Why Not?s. So we’re not in bad shape already.

(I assume we’re excluding street-corner proposals, Purim proposals, and similar whoa-what-was-thats.)

It’s quite flattering to be proposed to. Especially when you’ve got reams of guys who refused to look at you a second or third time.

“Wait, you want to marry me? [pinch self] Are you sure? Ohmigosh, can’t believe it. Can you repeat the question? [rummage through purse and pull out q-tip] give me a sec…[disappear into bathroom to squeal while jumping up and down] [deep breath, pat hair, exit]  Now, just to confirm, can you say it again? With my full name?”

I mean, seriously! Somebody who wants to marry me? Get the ring first, ask questions later!

Okay, maybe not all questions.

There was one fellow I dated I knew wasn’t quite a match. But for the life of me I couldn’t figure out why he was still agreeing to go out. Could it be he didn’t care? And if he didn’t care, did it matter? Didn’t I care? But then how many don’t-care-during-dating people turn out to be perfect tyrants afterward? I was puzzled, so we went out again.

I suppose, in theory, we could have kept going for a S7D (Standard 7 Dates) until he proposed, but luckily we cleared up a few misapprehensions and broke up shortly after.

So it couldn’t be a cold proposal. We’d have to know something about each other beforehand. But gosh yes! Who’s going to be picky about proposals? It’s not like they’re all that common! It must mean… he likes you. Seems like a very promising start to me.

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65 thoughts on “You Will Marry Me?

  1. What I don’t really understand about the Shidduch system is that if you take a well-rounded, balanced boy and a girl from two normal families, they will most likely get on just fine. But when does it progress to marriage consideration? After 7 meetings? Are you joking?

  2. The agonies one’s ego is put through.

    My 60 year old neighbor said that when he was dating, he was going to marry the first girl who said yes. Not because of “Somebody LIKES me!” but be because he couldn’t say no to a girl and potentially hurt her.

    Ah, romance . . .

  3. If it makes anyone feel any better, this syndrome also happens outside the shidduch system. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not.

    Terrific post, by the way.

  4. It sounds dumber when you put it that way. And you know that’s not what I meant.

    Oh, and this obviously isn’t true of you, as per comment number 8. 😀

  5. 9.No, I don’t fancy your last name. Bad4 E-Suitor? So not happening. – He didn’t even kneel, say something sweet and romantic (you make me like the luckiest man on Earth)…….. and where was the shevet prutah and aidim?

  6. It took me 12 dates to get over the “AHH I’VE BEEN ON TEN DATES WITH SOMEONE” shock factor. Then another two dates to make him sweat because there’s no reason to rush things.

    Who comes up with numbers like 7?

  7. The q-tip enigma has not yet been answered – was it needed to clear your ear canal to make sure you could hear him loud and clear? Sorry for the semi-gross image – but that’s the only logical thing I can think of.

  8. “Who’s ready to be shot down?” – That would first require me to be able to fly a plane, do I look I’ve got to time to learn how to fly?

  9. I think the dating world will be better off once people get it out of their heads to follow “rules” like “7 dates” and the like.

    For example: ummmmm, when is the first date I can complement her without her freaking out? (page flipping) Aha! It says on page 46 that I can complement her after the 6th date, unless she complemented me on date four, and then I can complement her on the 5th date, but only if it’s a Tuesday…) etc, ad nauseum.

    It’s synthetic, inorganic constraints like these that decrease natural progression. (And for the romantics, this will surely dampen your chances for romance.)

    Glad to read you don’t subscribe to this process. Other readers-take note. And if I’m preaching to the choir, please go preach it to as many people as possible.

  10. Read the Gale-Shapley paper in 1962. They found that marriages (defined under certain simplifying assumptions) are optimal for men and pessimal for women. Pessimal means minimally acceptable. That seems to be basically what you are saying.

  11. E-suitor’s proposal falls under the first parenthetical small-print in the post. Please re-read.

    Q-tip – yes, for ensuring the ear canal is clear and not distorting sound waves. Isn’t that a nicer way to put it?

  12. E-suitor’s proposal falls under the first parenthetical small-print in the post. Please re-read – Just release a hilchos marriage proposal sefer already. Complete with references to sources in Shas. Besides how do you know E-Suitor isn’t following the POV that if a rasha does Kiddushin on the condition that he’s a Tzaddik it’s a valid kiddushin (i.e. I mean if that Kiddushin is kosher why not a sarcastic proposal)?

  13. The proposal isn’t invalidated by whether he’s serious or not. It simply falls under the category of street-corner proposals and “whoa where’d that come from” proposals which I specified don’t count.

  14. Just because he asked you doesn’t mean you’ll want to go to the hospital in the middle of the night should he get sick, deal with personal piccadilos (hope it’s spelled right) and family relations. It’s nice that he wants you but one should be a little more discriminating about whom to spend the rest of one’s life with.

    “Shidduch crises” may be a word on everyone’s mind but plague of divorces is what I see now. The one is an inconvenience the second often a tragedy involving many more people than the two involved.

    Maybe the number 7 comes from a story that Rav Bick insisted that no one should get engaged before the 8th date. In replying to a jibe by the Satmar Rebbe, over the “excessive” number of dates, he was said to reply “You are Misader Kiddushin, I am Misader Gittin.”

    In fact, I’m not sure I believe you would pull the trigger as you said, you’re way to smart.

  15. ‘etc, ad nauseum. ‘
    thats my word……..
    and yea complements are nice except when you just say them on dates cuz then it makes dates go smoother even if you dont really like the person. i mean thinking about it …its very nice that the boys like my hair or think im pretty but a tiny bit weird that i met the guy two days ago and wont ever see him again till i meet him at a bagel shop in three months so tech nothin wrong but just a bit weirrrrd

    bad4 you should do a post on appropriateness of complements on dates….

  16. I complement strangers and what’s crazy is that I’d love to naturally complement my dates but I don’t want to freak them out because the whole system is so artificial…

  17. so complement them but dont do it in a freaky way ….
    freaky example… a friend of mine dated a guy and on the first/second date she thought it was goin well until he said to her “wow you smell nice”- hmmmmm thats not appropriate- the girl doesnt want you commenting on her smell when you dont even know her. like um save that for later
    on the other hand telling a girl her shoes r different or nice or somethin like that is totally fine i think

  18. RE comment #31: Personally, I don’t wear perfume and never have. I won’t get into the halachic questions involved, but if a girl does wear perfume, does she expect no one to notice it? Isn’t she doing so because she wants her scent noticed? It seems somewhat hypocritical to me for someone who wears it to say her date is crossing the line by commenting on it.

    But all this depends on the personality of the people involved. I remember a friend of mine telling me that every date she began with a particular person (whom she did not marry in the end) included a compliment on her hair. She seemed to like it.

  19. I’ve heard/been told that complimenting is important (maybe not the first date or two, but then again…) and that the guy should stay away from compliments related to physicality (IE: “Ur Hawt!” and I think the hair/scent would fall into this category as well). Rather, he should compliment her about things she said or did, “that was very considerate of you,” “that is fascinting” etc. I don’t think such remarks can be labeled as creepy.

  20. it is compliment my bad….
    RE: # 33
    i agree with you about the perfume and i dont personally wear perfume on dates…. it also happens to be ossur for a man to smell perfume on a woman other than his wife…… just an interesting fact
    however all that said i think the perfume example still holds true: just because a girl looks or ok fine smells hot a guy doesnt need to comment on it the first hour they met. I mean i dunno i find that quite creepy or maybe just wrong. Even in the non shidduch dating world it is in someway ( albeit to a lesser degree) innappropriate for a man to comment on a woman’s smell or beauty the first hour they’ve met. its just plain old wrong. That doesnt mean the girl has to look ugly or smell bad just that he should hold out on expressing his love and attraction for her at first sight till a wee bit later…..

  21. My mother went out with no less than 73 guys, and got married at the ripe old age of 24! In addition, she kept a trust diary to reflect upon all her dating excursions!

  22. To #36- you wrote “i agree with you about the perfume and i dont personally wear perfume on dates…. it also happens to be ossur for a man to smell perfume on a woman other than his wife…… just an interesting fact[.]”

    Please cite source(s). Thank you.

  23. oyyyy ok i will try but i learnt that in seminary ( ok everyone start making fun now) so it may take a few days to hunt down that source…..ill try my bestest though

  24. ok never mind it was easier to find than i thought
    let me clarify: the issur is that a man can’t INTENTIONALLY smell a womans perfume, and by a woman wearing it so that a man should smell it she is causing him to sin making her the “stumbling block.”
    ” shulchan aruch E.H. 21:1 “it is ossur even to smell the scent that is on a woman”
    for all those not going to look it up the previous discussion in the shulchan aruch was that its ossur to look intently on a woman.
    Mesilas yesharim also discusses it in chapter 11 when discussing forms of znus. znus may include forms of the “eye” or of the “nose”

  25. eyysdam,
    If we are going to carry this to its logical conclusion, since no exceptions are made, you had better toss out all your hair care products–all have a scent in them–and get rid of your deodorant–also scented–and ditch a whole lot of your makeup–also scented–and ditch the body washes and soaps–also scented. And while you are at it, you can now only buy those laundry detergents and fabric softeners that are marked totally unscented, otherwise your clothes will exude scent that will be credited to you.

    If a girl uses any/all of the above products and then gets into a car with a date she is “forcing” him to be aware of her scents (multiple) thus causing him to move from unintentional to intentional in smelling a woman. The first answer is to wear nothing whatsoever that is scented; the second step is to keep men strictly away from women in all places, since scent is pervasive in virtually all products produced today and will cause them to stumble. Neither of these options are practical, unless we are advocating total segregation of the sexes, also not practical, opssible or desireable.

    My Rav’s answer? It is now the custom of women, and long has been, to annoint themselves with scented products FOR THEMSELVES. It is not deliberate provocation, and the few instances where it might be considered this way are not the ones that are being discussed on this blog. In a world where everything is scented from cleansers to candles, from air fresheners to floor polish, if a man reacts to a scent on a woman that is wholly his problem and not something a woman caused him.

  26. I’m going to start marketing a BO scented (de)odorant for the female frummie crowd. The tagline: “No guy will ever be tempted again!” BOdorant. Available now at fine kosher outlets near you.

  27. “If a girl uses any/all of the above products and then gets into a car with a date she is “forcing” him to be aware of her scents (multiple) thus causing him to move from unintentional to intentional in smelling a woman. The first answer is to wear nothing whatsoever that is scented; the second step is to keep men strictly away from women in all places, since scent is pervasive in virtually all products produced today and will cause them to stumble. Neither of these options are practical, unless we are advocating total segregation of the sexes, also not practical, opssible or desireable.”

    wow slow down there….first of all i suggest, as you apparently did, to ask your local rabbi the translation and its implications because I am certainly not able to give anyone a psak on anything.
    however it would seem to me that you are blowing the probable implications WAY OUT OF PROPORTION. no one said anyone should live in box. Only that a woman should not apply perfume when being in a confined space with a man since it is seemingly ossur for him to smell a perfume on her and ‘appreciate it’. I don’t know what type of detergents you use and I certainly can’t understand what makeup you’ve seen ( or rather smelled) but most that ive been around do not have highly discernible scents, so much so that a boy on a date can smell it. OBVIOUSLY no woman can be held responsible for a man’s wild thoughts whether it be due to her looks or detergent smelling clothing. HOWEVER, it does seem justifiable for there to be “boundaries set in place as limitations or guidance. the same way a woman doesnt wear a bag on her face but at the same time should not walk around in an eye catching amount of makeup…..
    this whole concept is better known as TZNIUS/TZNIUT

    and i have heard that nowadays many woman wear it for themselves but i can definitely tell you that not all do. Furthermore unlike lemon and fresh spring scents which are not provacative just pleasant, perfumes are created to attract. Therefore, it still seems improper to apply perfume before a date knowing it will be just you and the boy in the car. There will be no doubt whose perfume he is smelling and I wouldn’t think the excuse of doing it for yourself will hold up. Normally, yes it might but in this case it does seem wrong doesn’t it?

  28. I do believe that the manner in which perfume is generally advertised, the celebrity pictures put on some of them, and even some of the names, would certainly support eyysdam’s case.

  29. while it does say in shulchan aruch 21:1 “even to smell the ‘bisamim’ and her and on her clothing is prohibited,” it does discuss in 21:3 that when one wants to marry, he may look upon a women to see is she is nice and to find out her “physical” status as long as this is not done derech z’nus.

    Applying the same policy, one could probably note the smell of his date to see if it bothers or attracts him, and once again, as long as it’s not done b’derech z’nus. therefore, a women looking to get married could probably apply “b’samim” to herself to make a date more attracted if not b’derech z’nus but for marriage.

    the nosei kaylim do not discuss this issue on the daf. I must disclose that my seforim selection is sorely lacking for looking up halochos (I am not home but in an ‘out-of-town’ place where they lock their seforim up in a room and only open it on shabbos!!!), and I had to download the shulchan aruch E.H. and the aruch Hashulchan E.H. …

  30. lock up the seforim? even in my ‘out of town ‘ place they dont do that
    that is very interesting but still it would seem wrong for the girl to apply attractive perfume that would lure a man to her scent…where is the line of B’derech znus crossed?
    again questions for your LR.

  31. Yep, they lock the seforim up in an upstairs bais medrish that is only opened on shabbos. Last night, after maariv, someone with the key looked at me like I was crazy when I asked him to open the door. He asked why. I told him I needed to learn some shulchan aruch. He said he couldn’t help me. crazy indeed.

    I think each person knows him/herself well enough to know when they are personally crossing that line- unless he/she is good at deluding and lying to him/herself.

    LR = legal research?

  32. Actually, I almost come from an antithetical Hicktown but it is a source of pride that I am not into the First: “shprach.” For some reason, many initials or abbreviations just rub me the wrong way. For example: FFB or LOL.

    Second: No offense but why ask your rabbi before you try to look up the question and answer it for yourself? And at that point, if you find you can argue both ways, and are not sure which way to go, maybe then you should ask your rav. But, I am not a fan of just running to a rabbi before I try to learn the sugya myself and come to a conclusion. I think this generation has forgotten how to look up halochos for themselves (and think for themselves, but that is a topic for another rant). besides, what do people think a rabbi does? magic?! No! He looks at the same seforim people should be looking in. (This is aimed at people who have had the privilege of going to yeshiva or seminary and can learn it themselves.)

    [semi-rant over.]

  33. Arrrgh. somehow, the word “First:” in the first sentence relocated itself to an unintended position, thereby destroying the syntax.

  34. definitely, i just meant that i cant interprete the words of the shulchan aruch for you ie. wear perfume or not or in your case sniff a girls perfume or not.
    or when something is znus or not….
    many people read this blog and i dont need anyone going away using my interpretations of halacha.
    hence ask your LR.
    Of course if you/I have the abilities to look things up that is preferable.
    and how can you “almost” come from somewhere?

  35. also Im not a feminist and dont profess to being able to learn gemara/shulchan aruch/mishnayos I leave that to the men

  36. I understand.

    And, what I meant by almost coming from the antithetical hicktown is: If I come from flatbush, that would be the antithetical hicktown. But, If I come from Passaic, Monsey, or Lakewood, for example, those are not quite antithetical but almost.

  37. oooo got it…..its funny cuz you are sooo typical the boys i date…your all the same type! i feel like becoming a profiler on frum law school boys/college boys.

  38. I highly doubt I am typical of the guys you date. I’d love to supply examples but that would destroy my anonymity 🙂

    by the way, in what way did you find me typical?

    and, isn’t it great conversing where all the bloggers can see? 😉

  39. yea its great but no one knows who you or I am. Not typical I guess but just like the boys Ive dated. R you sure your in an out of town place lol? cuz i was actually convinced you were a specific guy i dated

  40. hmm, now to help you figure out if you’ve dated me to assuage your curiosity… nope, don’t know how to do it but am open to suggestions if you’d like.

  41. wow this is funny wat semester law student r ya? B) r you presently out of town or not c)wat number are you in your family

  42. will answer question 2: yes. question 3 is, for this public forum, too personal, and question one is borderline.

    If you want, I can post here an email address where I will answer further. Just post an email address from which you will be emailing so I know it’s you/”eyysdam.”

  43. will email from the address lawschooldrunk1[]gmail, unless my earlier response answered your question.

  44. do not be alarmed that my icon changed. I switched the default email. Now I have to figure how I will get it back with the email address posted.

  45. For those of you curiously following this conversation, I am not the “one.” (Though, it would be really cool if I were Neo.)

    fin.

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