Bad4’s First Dates, 2 of 4

Part 1 is over here.

The Departure:

Awkward Item #1 –

Getting out the front door always seems to stymie my dates. I have no idea why otherwise competent men, who doubtless tied their own wingtips hardly 45 minutes ago, are incapable of putting out a hand and turning a doorknob.

The way I figure it, when it comes to doors, the guy leads. If he’s very polite, he’ll hold it open for you. If he’s very yeshivish, he’ll walk through first. Either way, he’s handling the door.

So I pause by the front door and look at Guy.

Guy looks at me.

I look at Guy.

Guy dithers.

I open the door and walk out.

Can someone explain this phenomenon?

The Drive:

There are three options here –

  • Guy doesn’t open car door for me.
  • Guy opens it but goes around the other side, leaving me to climb in and close it on my own.
  • Guy opens car door, waits for me to settle in, and then closes it, like some footman.

I think this whole door opening thing is stupid, but by now I’m beyond caring. I do find it amusing to note by which shita he’s been trained, though.

Guy starts jabbing at his GPS. I’m always impressed by a guy who actually knows where he’s going, instead of blindly trusting a computer program that I know is going to send him to the Prospect Expressway by the same bizarre route it sends all my dates. I ask where we’re going, and if I’m lucky it’s a conversation starter.

Awkward Item #2 –

Trying to find the happy medium between looking at him while you converse, as if he’s not driving and incapable of returning your gaze, at risk of being the gawker of the pair, versus turning your rapt attention upon the scenery, which will make you seem entirely disinterested when he does give a quick peek while sitting in the toll lane before the tunnel (because all GPSs send you to the tunnel even if the bridge is clear).  (Whoa that was a terrible sentence. Sorry ProfK.)

BJG listed a few things he finds awkward about the trot between car and ultimate destination. I’ve never found any of them bothersome, so here’s my response:

Do you walk slightly behind date (manners [??]), slightly in front (clear path for her), or next to her?

Quite frankly, I don’t understand the idea of walking behind a woman, even if you’re guiding her through the mess – seems more like using her as a battering ram. And unless you’re actually using yourself as a battering ram, I don’t see any point in walking ahead. Chances are she is more capable of navigating crowded streets than you are, due to her sales days shopping experience. So just walk next to her (as much as you can), and at least she won’t be wondering what kind of weirdo you are.

Revolving doors: Unless we’re dealing with those huge ones that are practically wheelchair accessible, I can’t imagine any reason to get into the same compartment as your date. I wouldn’t do it.

Escalators: Yes, I always take the step below Guy. I don’t know if it’s just escalator etiquette (who takes the same step as someone else, in general?) or just a feminine thingy of letting the guy take the lead in the date. And, hello, aren’t you talking on the escalator? I always face my date and comment on the scenery so he knows I’m impressed with his choice.

To be continued… Post 3

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24 thoughts on “Bad4’s First Dates, 2 of 4

  1. Hi Bad 4,
    Great Timing! I was just checking my email when I recieved your notification on part 2 on First Date. It definitely made me laugh :). May you always be able to share your humor. Thanks 🙂

  2. “Chances are she is more capable of navigating crowded streets than you are, due to her sales days shopping experience. So just walk next to her (as much as you can), and at least she won’t be wondering what kind of weirdo you are.”

    Walking through Times Square with a girl who grew up in New York is always an experience, it’s hard to keep up with them. I do walk beside the girl most of the time. The problem I have is when we get to a place where there’s not enough room to walk side by side, who goes first?

    On the revolving doors, I’ve had a girl go in the same compartment as me even on the normal sized ones (she also stood on the same step as me on the escalator). I also dated a girl who always wanted to go through the regular doors, which in NYC are usually locked. When we went through revolving doors sometimes she went in the same compartment, sometimes she didn’t. I was thoroughly confused.

    “And, hello, aren’t you talking on the escalator? I always face my date and comment on the scenery so he knows I’m impressed with his choice.”

    I’m guessing this is in response to what I wrote about staring at the girl’s butt. Yes, I always turn towards my date and talk on the escalator (awkward when you’re on the same step). The only time I found myself unexpectedly staring at my dates butt was after we had spent five hours walking through Central Park and we stopped in a hotel to find a bathroom (it was not on a first date. She must have been in a hurry to get there b/c she practically ran three steps ahead of me and didn’t turn around at all (I wasn’t complaining).

  3. Bored Jewish Guy, I read your comment and blog. It was very ennlightening. I have to admit that I am not at all shocked at the typical male fixations you mentioned. It’s refreshing to hear honest male mindsets.

  4. REDTred: Thanks, I was a little worried that I would come off sounding like a pig because I think a lot of frum girls don’t realize what goes through normal guys heads. Guys definitely don’t know what girls think about these things but we don’t believe that they don’t.

  5. Bad4, about the front door – maybe it’s just your front door? They prob don’t want to seem stupid cause it looks complicated. Or maybe they are using the oppurtunity just like BJG…

  6. I always have a problem by the front door. There is always the delicate balance of being chivalrous and watching out for any halachik issues all the while trying to avoid looking bad. Doors in general give me the toughest spot, but the front door also has other issues because it sets the tone for the whole date. Though it depends, if the parents walk you to the door then these issues get pushed off until you are outside, though the looking like a fool issue still is there. If they don’t walk you to the door, this is often the first time you are alone and that means that you have to start impressing her. That first impression often determines how the rest of the date is going to go (I normally can tell how the date is going to go in the first few minutes, though I have been wrong often enough to keep a very open mind). With all those things coming to play at that first moment it is enough to get stymied by the front door.

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  8. Keels: Surely girls have desires and curiosities, I have a hard time believing they don’t think about them.

    Jug: We probably shouldn’t get into the details of what parts of the female anatomy we are attracted to. I only mentioned butts because if you’re staring at a girl from behind, that’s what you’ll see. If you’re facing her, hopefully you’re not staring at anything other than her face, it would be too obvious and would make her uncomfortable.

    MF #1: I wouldn’t put a girl into a situation specifically to check her out; I’m generally very well behaved on my dates. I don’t know why a guy wouldn’t open the front door, I always try to.

  9. A quick note about the front door. Why do mothers lock it after the boy walks in? Hopefully, the boy is inside for approx. 5-7 minutes at a normal time of day. Whats the risk of leaving it unlocked? Everyone has a different lock system on their door and on the way out of a first date with everyone watching your every move, you don’t want to fumble with the locks. I would always give the door a try hoping it was unlocked. When I started dating I would try to unlock it myself, but inevitably I would pick the wrong lock (as their are always multiple locks on Brooklyn homes) and would only lock the door again. I learned fairly quickly to step aside and let either the girl or the mother (usually following only one step behind me) unlock it.

  10. BJG/Jughead – it’s not that girls don’t have desires, it’s that, unlike guys, desire has nothing to do with objectifying our dates by anatomy. There’s really nothing interesting to look at besides his face – sometimes not even that.

  11. :-/
    I dunno. Guys have always objectified women. I don’t think women have ever objectified men (but never say never). When I say there’s nothing to look at, I mean there’s no focus. We don’t care what your rear-ends look like though we can see them perfectly clearly. Obviously, you do. I’m certainly willing to call it “better” – why not? I’m not saying that general fitness isn’t attractive, but that’s an overall thing you can see at a glance.

  12. BJG, I think that attraction is one of the most important things and guys should create oppurtunities to check out the girl otherwise you’re wasting her time.

  13. bad4: I’m not trying to argue if women are better than men or not, of course they are ;-), not for this reason though. IMO, men look at women that way b/c we are made to desire them that way, which is what keeps the world populated (i.e. a good thing). The way women dress (even if they are tznius) accentuates their body shape, which attracts male attention (hopefully the men you’re dating don’t dress that way). Also in the non-frum world it’s fairly common for girls to comment on guy’s rear-ends (at least on TV/Movies).

    MF #1: I agree, except that I think there are enough opportunities to check the girl out, without staging it. At least wait until later in the date to stage something if it’s necessary.

  14. So for those of us who don’t know, what do guys find attractive about a girl (that would be tznius)? What looks nice?

  15. Anonymous: I find it funny that I’m attempting to give fashion advice for girls, but here goes. In general the tighter the clothes and the more skin they show, the more the guy will be attracted, what is considered tznius is up to the girl. There are clothes that are not tight that guys also like. I think most guys go for the simple cute look as well, like a denim skirt (I think that’s what they’re called) and a sweatshirt, I think it depends on the particular skirt style which I know nothing about. Honestly, with one exception, everything any girl I dated wore looked attractive on them. The only nice looking outfit that stood out was a very simple, dark gray, thing (i think it would be considered a dress but theres probably a different name for it) I don’t know how to explain it but it was the best looking thing I’ve seen a girl wear, without being disgusting. The main thing is to wear what looks good on you, when girls wear the latest fashion even though it looks awful on them, it’s a big turnoff.

  16. tzfnas: I know a girl that’s perfect for you, she would look great completely covered up 🙂

    Anonymous: Honestly the look from the shoulders up is the most important part, even though guys tend to think more about the rest of the body. I don’t know that much about different hairstyles, I do know that I like the styles with the hair down where some hair goes in front of the shoulders (I’m not too good at descriptions). I don’t notice the shoes so much unless the girl’s walking funny, the only time I made a point to check out the girl’s shoes, she was wearing open toe shoes. I liked them but I was wondering if it’s normal for a BY girl to wear open toes? One thing I will say that girls do to their hair (I think it’s out of style by now) that is a big turn off is the bump thing. If you have any pictures of yourself with a bump on facebook, take them down. I almost didn’t go out with a girl b/c she had one in her fb profile pic, I didn’t realize it was just the hairstyle that made her look like there was something off about her. When I saw her in person, I thought I looked at the wrong girl on facebook. A friend of mine told me that when he was dating his wife, she wore a bump on every date even after he told her he didn’t really like it. Seriously it’s hideous!

  17. Pingback: Bad4’s First Dates, 4 of 4 « Bad for Shidduchim

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  19. While I agree with the whole trying to talk to each other thing, even on an escalator, what I don’t understand is why you (Bad4) would be on the lower step. In large part, the guy is taller, and so he, being chivalrous, should maneuver things such that he is on the lower step. Then both should face each other and begin talking. If the conversation is so engrossing, then the rear placed but forward facing partner (the girl is you’re going down, the guy if you’re going up) should warn the other party watch out so as to avoid being chewed up by the escalator’s teeth.

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