Shidduch dating is a lot like going for a walk in the jungle. You shower in DEET, don your cute safari shirt, take your trail map, have finally reached the point where you’re sure the vine isn’t really a snake and you know just which plants not to touch and which dark places not to stick your hand. You’re strolling along and then you happen to glance over your shoulder and see a tiger padding curiously along behind.
AAAAH!
I thought I had mastered all the questions – like why did my great grandparents come to the USA, why did I attend my seminary if I’m so smart, who’s my rav – no problem. Then a friend calls me up and says, “I’m trying to redt you to this guy and his mother wants to know what you do for spirituality.”
Like I was saying: AAAAH!
Don’t get me wrong. I understand where the mother is coming from. You have these girls coming back from seminary with ideas about lifestyles, Torah, and gashmius, and six months into earning their living by answering phones or wiping runny noses and they’re suddenly losing their idealism and thinking that maybe the support should go the other way around. It’s a concern, I hear it. So what if I’ve been out of seminary for four years now? Backsliding is a continuous process. You may indulge less as you progress from the idealistic age, but it’s always a backup activity for a rainy afternoon.
But… that’s kind of a personal question, unique to each individual, often complex, and certainly not the sort of thing one’s friend can explain over the phone. Isn’t that like a fourth date kind of question?
I agonized over how to answer that. “Um, ah…”
“Like, do you go to any shiurim on a regular basis?”
Oh, that kind of thing. Heavens, no. I’ve never been to a speech I haven’t slept through and felt guilty about afterwards. And there’s a limit to how much guilt a person can feel. I can’t blame it on perverseness; I even space out when my boss has been going on for too long. I hope he doesn’t see my eyes glaze over. Usually I catch myself before the head starts nodding. It’s like one of those learning style things – I don’t do audio. Audio books don’t work for me either. I remember our high school psychology teacher saying that ADHD is when a kid has a low energy level and needs stimulation to keep from nodding off. Since the class doesn’t stimulate him, he stays awake by being active. Well, maybe I’ve stayed off ritalin by just letting things take their course. Zzzz… Wake me up when class is over.
We finally agreed that having a chavrusa counts as looking after one’s spirituality. Friend called the mother back, and I haven’t heard from either since. Time to find a maggid shiur?
I mention this to a friend who gave me one of those “And you’re an expert on dating?” looks I get whenever I reveal the gaping holes in my strategic knowledge of the game. “Of course. That’s why people go to Rabbi Reisman’s shiur,” she explained patiently. “It’s interesting, it’s at a convenient time in the week, and they can say they go to a shiur regularly.”
Silly me. And here I thought they went for the mussar or the Navi. Now that I think about it… I haven’t been there in a while, but maybe the women’s audience was predominantly young singles and older marrieds? Did the new-shaitel crowd bother to show up? Who knows – who cares.
I’d say I’m in the market for a shiur, but I’m really not. I think it’s aspiritual to be rude to speakers by ignoring them. But, let’s accept for a moment that wanting to know how a person tends to his/her spirituality is a good question – what behaviors might be considered good indicators?
Bad for Shidduchim 
Still trying to wrap my head around “Isn’t that like a fourth date kind of question?” There’s a set time order for discussing certain types of information? Is there a packet someone can buy with the proscribed questions set out by which date they should be asked on? Is there a discount if you’re buying multiple packets?
the mother flew off to israel for 3 weeks and left me stranded 😦
Making a point of Davening with a Minyan on Shabbos (and Davening regularly during the week too); being attentive or even (gasp!) actively contributing to Torah-oriented discussions at the Shabbos (or even weekday?) table; reading/learning spiritually-oriented material (Mishpacha/Yated/etc. don’t count), even without a Chavrusah (‘Chavrusette’). I think these things would be good indicators of spiritual-growth-seeking (though some might argue that there absence doesn’t necessarily mean total disinterest in spiritual growth).
I find it offensive that the AMAZING shiurim by Rabbi Yisroel Reisman are used as a cover. Obviously, those gals weren’t paying attention to his messages. On the subject of Shimshon, my most favorite rabbi on the face of this Earth said that when hishtadlus ends, bitachon begins. Meaning, if what you planned did not go as you planned (for instance, in shidduchim), then you can achieve happiness by saying “Hashem has a plan.”
But apparently Rabbi Reisman is merely a box to be ticked off, like all the other “Good for Shidduchim” so called requirements.
I once had a guy ask me on a third date “What is your relationship to Torah learning?” I was totally caught off guard–I went to frum schools my whole life, through seminary and even college, and I worked in a Jewish organization. If I’d been in school, where Torah classes were required, it would have been an easy question to answer, but I worked full-time and didn’t have much leftover energy or motivation for shiurim, chavrusa, etc. I mumbled something shamefacedly about learning Hilchos Shabbos with my roommate and left it at that.
Also, I just read your “Ask Me About Me” post and couldn’t stop laughing. Unfortunately, uniqueness is not rewarded in this community, and it can really count against you in shidduchim. Far easier to be a “cookie cutter”–but also far more boring. I loved your answers; don’t give up!
Lol. I didn’t go to his shiurim for the Navi or mussar, either. I went to go watch the sign language translator in action…
Try this book it should help you
The Surrendered Single: A Practical Guide to Attracting and Marrying the Man Who’s Right for You
Nope. New shaitel crowd need not apply. They don’t have anyone to impress anymore.
Those who go to shiurim just to get a shidduch deserve to marry the bachurim in yeshiva just to get a shidduch. When everyone is doing everything just to get a shidduch, it all becomes utterly meaningless. When I was single I did go to shiurim and learned on my own, but it had nothing to do with getting a shidduch. I still learn on my own but don’t often go to shiurim. There are some very good ones offered, but I don’t always have the time to spare during the week. And for Shabbos ones, I find many of the women’s shiurim rather simplistic. The ones giving the shiur do not want to aim over the heads of the audience, and not all the women have had the most solid foundation in Jewish education or have forgotten what they learned years ago.
Ugh, ugh, and ugh. My first reaction was, “What chutzpa!” but you do make a good point. HOWEVER, I vehemently do NOT agree with the going to a shiur if you don’t really enjoy it mentality, just so it will be “good for shidduchim”. Shiurim are not for everyone. You can have a great relationship with Torah and Judaism without having a chavrusa, going to classes, etc, etc. And if a guy wants that from you and likes that about you, and all of a sudden you stop once you’re married…that’s not a good situation. I know guys who very much like girls who genuinely do things like that, and would be very disappointed to hear it’s all a sham.
I guess in a way, they have a right to ask it. If i ask about the guy’s davening and learning habits, can I deny them the very same right?
(although when they ask for a picture, and we dare not request one in return…)
But I think that spirituality can be a very personal thing. I don’t mind telling them that I try my best to daven Shacharis and Mincha everyday, but beyond that I find to be personal.
I’m surprised no one mentioned ohr naava yet!
If I can offer a somewhat serious answer to this peculiar question, there is always chesed. If you say you are involved in activities that help people in need, then I think that should suffice for the spirituality thing. If it doesn’t, well, then I would say that the asker is looking for a pat answer and is looking for a furthering of the cookiecutterness.
à contraire Yosef, at least in my experience, Chessed is often a cookie-cutter answer (though of course chessed *is* a wonderful thing).
Chessed is something else. Should someone be written off because she doesn’t do chessed? Perhaps she is juggling school and work and doesn’t have the free time. Perhaps her chessed consists of helping at home, but that doesn’t “count” as official “chessed hours” required in schools. I really don’t like the idea of these things being checked off as minimum requirements. I also wouldn’t ask about a bachur in those terms. Everyone is usually described as a “ben-Torah” who learns really well, has good middos, etc. These questions in advance do not get real answers, only the prescribed checklist ones. There is no substitute for learning what the person is all about one-on-one. And I don’t care if the shadchan vouches for the person 100%. The shadchan may well be mistaken and, certainly, wishes to promote the match.
So Ariella, what questions would you suggest asking in order to get real answers, and not “prescribed checklist ones”? I’m not talking about questions of plastic tablecloth caliber, I mean the ones that will help you determine if you should meet the other party, as opposed to dating every Ben-Torah or Aidel-Maidel who someone thinks is the PERFECT match. Hey Bad4, how about a post on good, effective questions?
thank you Ariella – I am one of those who, between school and work, has little time for ‘outside’ Chesed activities. It’s all suma min ha’ayin…
To Ariella, I wasn’t saying that everyone needs to have done chessed. To say that is to create another hakafah of the shidduch interview process – when something becomes somewhat common, it turns into a must-have, leaving behind all those who do not have that element. See: studying a year in Israel, Shanah Bet, majoring in PT/OT/speech, wearing certain clothes, NOT wearing certain clothes, going to this R’ Reisman’s shiur, etc.
To Shuttle, I didn’t say that you should have a generic answer of “I do chessed.” I was simply answering the question of what is there to add some spirituality to one’s (dare I say it) shidduch resume, especially when limud Torah has become passe (in the form of everyone knows the unofficial official shiur to attend). If one is going to be involved with something, then do it properly and be involved with something. Take a leadership role, or at least a significant time commitment. Then it would not be cookie-cutter.
Although two caveats, for the delight of all the jaded readers: 1)if you are doing such advanced chessed as I describe ONLY FOR THE PURPOSE of having something to say to the spirituality question, then you aren’t being very spiritual, are you? 2) And of course, as I began this comment, everything may spin out of control into the next “thing” that “everybody” is doing, and then you do get to be cookie-cutter, even if you arrange Shabbatonim for mentally-handicapped physically-challenged terror victims born into poverty and out of wedlock who are now looking for someone to help them with hachnasas kallah, levayas hameis, halbashas arumim, and zekifas kefuffim.
So does that mean that I should give up my favorite shiur (and the highlight of my week) because I got married? FEH!
Wait a second…does [i]giving[/i] a shiur count as spirituality? Maybe you should start giving one…or you can come to mine.. 😀